Rescue

[Abraxxos]

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

Nope i'm the only Paramedic who's never witnessed a panic attack or seizure.



Here we go.

That has nothing to do with them missing each other. If your snake is doing that something is wrong with it.


I'm not trying to be an A hole. I like to joke, don't take it personal, but somethings up with er...that....

You're right. There is something wrong with that. It's separation stress. I didn't say they 'missed' each other. Everyone knows snakes don't feel like that ~dripping sarcasm~. (Don't get me started on that, let's just agree to disagree because that's a stupid flame war waiting to happen, and Randy, I've already established I like you. I really don't want to not like you because of a disagreement) Don't take it personally, but you haven't seen these snakes and you haven't seen every case in the world by any means. I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, but I can already tell you you're wrong. These snakes have been seen by several vets now who, after not only having the behaviour described but watching the behaviour themselves, they explained it as stress induced by separation. The change in the norm (the norm being with the other snake) is too jarring for them and was described as making them feel vulnerable.

If you want to disagree, that's fine, I really don't give a hoot. The animals have been seen by multiple long time experienced vets who are professionals and know what they're doing and aside from the 3 problems being fixed (Or have already been fixed)(RI, emaciation, mouth rot injuries), they're fine.

[Aaron_S]

Yup with a quick skim of the thread they look in better health.

It's foolish to consider or pass on information that snakes have separation anxiety or "stress". I have yet to be given any definitive proof of this. I'd venture to say one enclosure is simply better suited.

[KORBIN5895]

So you're saying that solitary creatures that only seek each other out for sex during a certain time of year have separation anxiety? Sure sounds legit to me.

Also IBD isn't fast in boas. They can carry it for a long time without symptoms and they can show symptoms for a quite awhile without death.

[Abraxxos]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Yup with a quick skim of the thread they look in better health.

It's foolish to consider or pass on information that snakes have separation anxiety or "stress". I have yet to be given any definitive proof of this. I'd venture to say one enclosure is simply better suited.

I have yet to be given any definitive proof that states herps don't have anxiety or stress. And, telling everyone right now, pointing out that they don't have limbic systems means jack to me so just really don't even bother. Falling on deaf uncaring ears.

[smy_749]

Nobody showed me definitive proof that snakes don't understand me when I speak to them, so therefore, they must understand me.

[Abraxxos]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

So you're saying that solitary creatures that only seek each other out for sex during a certain time of year have separation anxiety? Sure sounds legit to me.

Also IBD isn't fast in boas. They can carry it for a long time without symptoms and they can show symptoms for a quite awhile without death.

Please pay attention to details before putting words into somebody's mouth. Not once did I say anything specifying separation anxiety. I said stress. Considering advice is constantly given to not handle animals like chameleons because they are easily 'stressed' I don't want to hear anything from anybody saying herps don't experience stress. Also, snakes aren't solely solitary. However, not the point of the thread. Please move on.

Nor do I understand why it would ever be foolish to pass on the information of people who study these animals and their health for a living. Especially when more than 4 of them came up with the same conclusion. These snakes are not wild and have been together for a long time. It is not unheard of to find some snakes that do get along and some that don't. There is nothing implicating that said interactions couldn't be further expressed.

Smy, will you quit your arrogant ****? I'm not saying that because there isn't proof to say otherwise it's true. I'm saying you don't know whether or not it is. You don't honestly know if your snake understands or not. If a dog can learn to read and a gorilla can learn sign language and reptiles like monitors have already proven they can learn new behaviours, what exactly makes you think that they don't understand simply choose to ignore you? You don't. Monty understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath. Now I'm pretty sure thats more of it's a loud tonal noise that's making him rethink exiting the tub less of an actual recognition and understanding but besides that none of you actually know. I don't claim to know. They haven't actually mapped out the human brains yet or dog brains... They've barely scratched the surface of reptile brains.

Now. The topic of this thread is is the rescue and well being of these snakes, not your unknowledgeable prejudice on an unrelated debate that remains long winded and fruitless. Nothing anyone here can tell me at all will convince me otherwise. So before you waste your time, don't bother. If you want to start a debate thread, be my guest, but this is not the thread for said nonsense.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Abraxxos

' I don't want to hear anything from anybody saying herps don't experience stress. Also, snakes aren't solely solitary. However, not the point of the thread. Please move on.
.

You say that a lot. You obviously don't like hearing anyone contradict your foolish ideas.

Yes boas are a solitary animal. As a matter of fact the vast majority of snakes are solitary animals. Do you know anything about them?

The more you talk the crazier you sound, especially with statements like " Monty
understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it
comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath."

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

You say that a lot. You obviously don't like hearing anyone contradict your foolish ideas.

Yes boas are a solitary animal. As a matter of fact the vast majority of snakes are solitary animals. Do you know anything about them?

The more you talk the crazier you sound, especially with statements like " Monty
understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it
comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath."

I wish I didn't delete the PM's she sent me when I doubted her being raised by dogs. Seriously....

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Abraxxos

Please pay attention to details before putting words into somebody's mouth. Not once did I say anything specifying separation anxiety. I said stress. Considering advice is constantly given to not handle animals like chameleons because they are easily 'stressed' I don't want to hear anything from anybody saying herps don't experience stress. Also, snakes aren't solely solitary. However, not the point of the thread. Please move on.

Correct, reptiles experience stress from handling. Incorrect to assume it's all the same "stress". You were the one who implicated a specific stress as in separation stress. I only replied to that point, don't go changing your tune now to suit your needs.

Snakes are solitary. They do not have flocks, herds or prides in the wild. A handful of species do come together for specific times of the year but they don't go pair off or live in a family. They literally come together to make new snakes and that's it for most species. This is widely known.

Nor do I understand why it would ever be foolish to pass on the information of people who study these animals and their health for a living. Especially when more than 4 of them came up with the same conclusion.

Please post these findings of these people here http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/gener...-theories.html

Monty understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath. Now I'm pretty sure thats more of it's a loud tonal noise that's making him rethink exiting the tub less of an actual recognition and understanding but besides that none of you actually know

Considering snakes lack a real external ear I'd say it's something else. Post a video for us please so we can "know" just like you then.

Now. The topic of this thread is is the rescue and well being of these snakes, not your unknowledgeable prejudice on an unrelated debate that remains long winded and fruitless. Nothing anyone here can tell me at all will convince me otherwise. So before you waste your time, don't bother. If you want to start a debate thread, be my guest, but this is not the thread for said nonsense.

It isn't unrelated. The well being of these animals and future animals is being discussed. If someone wants to set them up as they weren't solitary then the well being of those animals could be in trouble. Considering there's been FAR more problems with co-living situations than not, I'd say you're putting the snakes well being at risk. This is an issue that any long time keeper has seen. The best part is that it's all but gone from the hobby as it seems to have really caught on to individually house snakes. I wish you'd update your husbandry practices.

[Terranaut]

Wether wild statements or not can we move this part of the thread to the other thread Aaron listed and keep this a rescue thread? It's a great rescue and the snakes are obviously doing much better. Not saying we can't discuss snakes thought paterns just not here. I would hate to see a thread with such a successful rescue end up in a flame war.

[Hannibalcanibal]

I know i don't post much, but.....

If the snakes are doing better (which the pictures prove), i don't think it really matters what kind of "crazy" stuff she believes about snakes, just as long as the snakes are healthy (they are).

With that aside, my snakes don't care whether it is silent or i'm blasting death metal as loud as my speakers go. Snakes do not hear, feel, or care if you say "no". So, from a scientific perspective, it is not accurate to say they have seperation anxiety, or that they respond to "no".

But, the snakes are obviously getting better, so to me it does not matter if you "humanize" snakes. They are obviously in good hands, so i'm not worried about it at all.

[Abraxxos]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

You say that a lot. You obviously don't like hearing anyone contradict your foolish ideas.

Yes boas are a solitary animal. As a matter of fact the vast majority of snakes are solitary animals. Do you know anything about them?

The more you talk the crazier you sound, especially with statements like " Monty
understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it
comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath."

First, nobody asked your rude opinion, second, I never specifically said boas, I said snakes, and they've actually found a lot of snakes living in close quarters during winter coming together for sex and warmth. Do YOU know anything about them or are you unaware of what the definition of solitary is? Because hundreds of snakes isn't solitary. I don't mind contradicting ideas. I do mind idiots who can do nothing but poke fun and harass an OP who obviously isn't affecting her animals negatively, but positively, actually. Third, you're funny, because attacking somebody with insults when they say something you don't like is the really childish thing to do and, might I add, what a majority of people do when they 'don't like hearing others contradict you'.

Originally Posted by Hannibalcanibal

I know i don't post much, but.....

If the snakes are doing better (which the pictures prove), i don't think it really matters what kind of "crazy" stuff she believes about snakes, just as long as the snakes are healthy (they are).

With that aside, my snakes don't care whether it is silent or i'm blasting death metal as loud as my speakers go. Snakes do not hear, feel, or care if you say "no". So, from a scientific perspective, it is not accurate to say they have seperation anxiety, or that they respond to "no".

But, the snakes are obviously getting better, so to me it does not matter if you "humanize" snakes. They are obviously in good hands, so i'm not worried about it at all.

Again, I never said they had separation anxiety. I said they experience stress which obviously they do. If nobody here has never experienced snakes reacting that way, well sucks for you guys.

As for the music? I haven't found a majority of loud noises bother the snakes unless they are very sudden or too loud. The asshats who live below me are constantly having parties and blaring music so loud my entire apartment shakes and this has shown plenty of times to piss off some of my nicest snakes and freak them out. Bass heavy music + too loud = bad for my snakes. Radio, one of my other BCIs, was never aggressive, but the party freaked him out enough he tagged me pretty good while I was cleaning then proceeded to hiss like a feral cat. I think that was less sound more the vibrations.

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

It isn't unrelated. The well being of these animals and future animals is being discussed. If someone wants to set them up as they weren't solitary then the well being of those animals could be in trouble. Considering there's been FAR more problems with co-living situations than not, I'd say you're putting the snakes well being at risk. This is an issue that any long time keeper has seen. The best part is that it's all but gone from the hobby as it seems to have really caught on to individually house snakes. I wish you'd update your husbandry practices.

It is, as these are opinions and conjecture and a variety of insults from those disagreeing. You may have seen negative problems emerging from group housing, but I haven't. Treat me like any other member and if it's such a mistake, then let it be a mistake and let it be so the natural learning process may occur. Obviously, my snakes are doing fine and making great progression. Thank you for your input, considering yours wasn't insult ridden, but again, I did say not to waste your breath, didn't I?

There's nothing to 'catch on' to. All of my snakes except for these two are housed individually and you know what? They do perfectly together. No problems. For your information, I actually have a spare enclosure set up specifically for the other snake in case something arises.

As for husbandry updates? I wish people wouldn't bother to post about things I've already asked you not to but... that's not happening, now is it? Since you must know, an update will be posted in about a week and a half or so. Some creative updates might be made sooner, perhaps Thursday, but it's entirely possible the post won't be made until later. The significant other is coming down and I'll be introducing him to the wonders of herp keeping and everything that goes with it. Especially on the weekend other than light comments, I probably won't be making any big posts while he is here. I plan on playing with some enclosure ideas to get them more decorated and I'm really considering air plants, but I absolutely suck at growing plants however easy everyone makes them out to be. There is nothing to update until then. I'm sorry I'm not like a lot of you who think a single change in degree is worth updating about. 'Day 1456... The temperature raised 2 degrees like it should during the day. Nothing else has changed - Night 1456... The temperature has dropped 2 degrees like it should during the day' I don't see the point in making continued posts on husbandry if the enclosure isn't actually changing. To me it's not even a post worth talking about. 'Oh wow, Mike! Look at that your enclosure... It's the exact same it was last week. And the week before. And the week before that' Just not my thing I suppose. I'll update on the snakes because the snakes are actually changing but husbandry updates like that don't ring as important to me. I understand the importance of correct husbandry, do not misconstrue that as me thinking husbandry isn't important. I just don't think it's important enough to make an update on unless I'm making a post stating a problem and the husbandry needs to be known so as to diagnose.

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Wether wild statements or not can we move this part of the thread to the other thread Aaron listed and keep this a rescue thread? It's a great rescue and the snakes are obviously doing much better. Not saying we can't discuss snakes thought paterns just not here. I would hate to see a thread with such a successful rescue end up in a flame war.

+1

That would be the general reason behind me asking them not to bother when that's all it will wind up being.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Abraxxos

As for husbandry updates? I wish people wouldn't bother to post about things I've already asked you not to but...

Open forum...I don't get why people think because they make a thread that they get to moderate it.

that's not happening, now is it? Since you must know, an update will be posted in about a week and a half or so. Some creative updates might be made sooner, perhaps Thursday, but it's entirely possible the post won't be made until later. The significant other is coming down and I'll be introducing him to the wonders of herp keeping and everything that goes with it. Especially on the weekend other than light comments, I probably won't be making any big posts while he is here. I plan on playing with some enclosure ideas to get them more decorated and I'm really considering air plants, but I absolutely suck at growing plants however easy everyone makes them out to be. There is nothing to update until then. I'm sorry I'm not like a lot of you who think a single change in degree is worth updating about. 'Day 1456... The temperature raised 2 degrees like it should during the day. Nothing else has changed - Night 1456... The temperature has dropped 2 degrees like it should during the day' I don't see the point in making continued posts on husbandry if the enclosure isn't actually changing. To me it's not even a post worth talking about. 'Oh wow, Mike! Look at that your enclosure... It's the exact same it was last week. And the week before. And the week before that' Just not my thing I suppose. I'll update on the snakes because the snakes are actually changing but husbandry updates like that don't ring as important to me. I understand the importance of correct husbandry, do not misconstrue that as me thinking husbandry isn't important. I just don't think it's important enough to make an update on unless I'm making a post stating a problem and the husbandry needs to be known so as to diagnose.

I enjoyed the fact you spewed this giant paragraph for a complete misunderstanding. I don't care when you post or if you post ever.

I meant physically UPDATING your husbandry practices. As in going with the modern way of reptile keeping and not the out dated ones.

I'd like you to post the relevant information in the thread I linked to. I have yet to have anyone really post good information for their responses or ideas in it. You said there's 4 people with work on the subject.

[franks]

Originally Posted by Abraxxos

It's separation stress.
they explained it as stress induced by separation.

You did refer to it as separation anxiety.

Regardless, I do think it is awesome what you are doing for the animals. I think some of the feeding pics you showed, especially monty's, indicate that your snakes could take larger meals. I agree with Terranaut that this is a great thread and does not need to be dragged through the mud. We are all responsible for our own words, I would like to encourage you to refrain from antagonistic language if you would like to keep this thread on track.

[Abraxxos]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Open forum...I don't get why people think because they make a thread that they get to moderate it.



I enjoyed the fact you spewed this giant paragraph for a complete misunderstanding. I don't care when you post or if you post ever.

I meant physically UPDATING your husbandry practices. As in going with the modern way of reptile keeping and not the out dated ones.

I'd like you to post the relevant information in the thread I linked to. I have yet to have anyone really post good information for their responses or ideas in it. You said there's 4 people with work on the subject.

Considering only pictures of 2 of my enclosures have been posted, you have no idea how my enclosures are done nor have any ideas how updated they are. You have no idea whether my enclosures are better than yours or not even. Again. You wish some things, I wish others.

You act like I care enough to post that info. You act like I have that info. I'm not the person with the work on it. Why would I have y of it? I don't even know if they have any of their work published. Can't you understand paraphrasing what somebody else said?

How do you not understand that this thread has an actual point. It's a rescue thread not an 'insert stupid opinions here/flame/debate' thread. It's a thread for me to post updates on my animals and their health not a 'spew your disagreements' thread. Is that too much to ask?