Scaleless Ball Python???

[Nobodyspecial]

Just found this on another site, posted by someone who works for BHB. So it looks like they're out of the egg now. Interesting looking snake, but I'm not really sure how I feel about scaleless snakes just yet.

[desipooh.12]

Wow now that looks amazing!
Looks so soft like silk!

[simpleyork]

in a captive environment I don't see anything wrong with having scaleless. But I personally like the wild versions of reptiles.

[Mikoh4792]

Nasty. Like the naked mole rat of reptiles.

[Donnie]

Don't Royals normally have heat pits on the upper part of their mouths?

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by Donnie

Don't Royals normally have heat pits on the upper part of their mouths?

Scaleless snakes lose that... one of the things people have issues with since its a clear disadvantage like the unprotected eye

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by Donnie

Don't Royals normally have heat pits on the upper part of their mouths?

You are 100% correct.

It is said that they can feed without the heat pits....but it does not make the entire thing any less disgusting. Cut my arms off and I will still eat.

Breeding animals for a variation in color is like coloring your hair. You look different but you are exactly the same. (Spider wobble issues aside....different conversation)

This however is actually breeding out a significant part of the animals body!!

I was reading on another site where someone, who worked in the facility where the derma-ball was hatched, (and handled it regularly) said the animal felt like it was going to rip because the skin was so thin. That might be why we don't hear about the animal anymore....because it ripped and died. (Don't know)

Consider:
The husbandry we employ when keeping Royals is based on the needs of the animals (with scales) in the wild. What they seek. We actually don't know to what extent the skin has been changed since it's clear this mutation is not limited to scales.(see: no heat pits) Now the same animals without this major part of its physical body needs:

> Heat range that will be comfortable - nobody knows.
> Certain substrates to be avoided due to being uncomfortable - nobody knows.
> humidity range that will be uncomfortable & heathy- nobody knows.
> The same three items but from the perspective of causing minor damage, again we don't know.
> x? For the eyes to remain comfortable since they are capless.

Will these things be figured out; yes. How many animals have to suffer and or die in the process of this learning curve - nobody knows.

Does it look interesting? Sure it does.

Honestly IMO this animal represents an utmost lack of consideration for the health and comfort for the animals we claim to care for. What they are doing is disgusting hypocrisy.



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[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by Chris72

You are 100% correct.

It is said that they can feed without the heat pits....but it does not make the entire thing any less disgusting. Cut my arms off and I will still eat.

Breeding animals for a variation in color is like coloring your hair. You look different but you are exactly the same. (Spider wobble issues aside....different conversation)

This however is actually breeding out a significant part of the animals body!!

I was reading on another site where someone, who worked in the facility where the derma-ball was hatched, (and handled it regularly) said the animal felt like it was going to rip because the skin was so thin. That might be why we don't hear about the animal anymore....because it ripped and died. (Don't know)

Consider:
The husbandry we employ when keeping Royals is based on the needs of the animals (with scales) in the wild. What they seek. We actually don't know to what extent the skin has been changed since it's clear this mutation is not limited to scales.(see: no heat pits) Now the same animals without this major part of its physical body needs:

> Heat range that will be comfortable - nobody knows.
> Certain substrates to be avoided due to being uncomfortable - nobody knows.
> humidity range that will be uncomfortable & heathy- nobody knows.
> The same three items but from the perspective of causing minor damage, again we don't know.

Will these thing be figured out; yes. How many animals have to suffer and or die in the process of this learning curve - nobody knows.

Does it look interesting? Sure it does.

Honestly IMO this animal represents an utmost lack of consideration for the health and comfort for the animals we claim to care for. What they are doing is disgusting hypocrisy.



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THIS ^^^^

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Stewjoe

The hets had scales missing from their heads. Brian is hoping it proves to be co-dom and creates a fully scaleless snake.

Clearly animal welfare is not a priority here.

Defend the man if you want, but if someone was intentionally trying to breed skinless dogs or cats with no feet, they would be locked up.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by simpleyork

But I personally like the wild versions of reptiles.

[Terranaut]

Great post Chris. I think it looks very cool....
BUT!!!
I tend to think of mutations like this. What if man were pets of aliens? They breed us to be black or white or albino....tall or maybe they think big fat ones are just the cutest..whatever..all of the above are still pretty much the same as Chris indicated above. But what if they liked armless babies or severe cleft pallet looks "cool" to them. A little different now isn't it? This is the armless baby right here. All scaless snakes are IMHO in the same boat. I would never own one period.

[smy_749]

I always thought about what would happen if we came up with awesome mutations in humans and 'super forms' like leucistics and what not. Then I remember that eugenics is bad and stop thinking about it.

[Starbuck]

i can't speak for all scaleless snakes, but one of the papers posted on the other scaleless thread said that the snakes were lacking some type of keratin, causing the scaleless phenotype. the way i understood it, the snakes still had all the components/layers of their skin, it just wasn't coalescing/forming the scales themselves. In this way, the snakes still have a layer of skin over their eyes; the skin doesnt involute to form the heat pits, etc etc, but all the components are still there.
Im not sure if all scaleless phenotypes have the same genetic mutation, but if the above is true, it is highly unlikely that the snake will 'rip and die', at least more so than any other baby snake.
I do think it is interesting to think about how this affects their abilities to thermoregulate etc.
I also would like to know if DESPITE the orefices for heat pits being absent, are the nerve endings and structures etc still there, that perhaps the snake CAN still sense heat etc from prey, but in a reduced capacity. I personally need to evaluate this snake on the basis of more than just conjecture and a few photos before i start calling it an abomination etc.

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

i can't speak for all scaleless snakes, but one of the papers posted on the other scaleless thread said that the snakes were lacking some type of keratin, causing the scaleless phenotype. the way i understood it, the snakes still had all the components/layers of their skin, it just wasn't coalescing/forming the scales themselves. In this way, the snakes still have a layer of skin over their eyes; the skin doesnt involute to form the heat pits, etc etc, but all the components are still there.
Im not sure if all scaleless phenotypes have the same genetic mutation, but if the above is true, it is highly unlikely that the snake will 'rip and die', at least more so than any other baby snake.
I do think it is interesting to think about how this affects their abilities to thermoregulate etc.
I also would like to know if DESPITE the orefices for heat pits being absent, are the nerve endings and structures etc still there, that perhaps the snake CAN still sense heat etc from prey, but in a reduced capacity. I personally need to evaluate this snake on the basis of more than just conjecture and a few photos before i start calling it an abomination etc.

Was reading this study last night:
http://www.ejh.it/index.php/ejh/arti...load/1136/1257

I'm not a vet so there some terms I don't understand however clearly scaleless is not the same (unless I misunderstood )

Pasted from the study linked above:

"In moults of the scaleless snake C. atrox utilized in the present study, only an oberhautchen-like layer appears to be present, probably representing the remnant of the thin beta-layer. This thin layer was probably described also in the colubrid snake Pituophis melanoleucus catenifer (Licht and Bennet, 1972). The low amount of beta-keratin bands at relatively high molecular weight (33 kDa) may be derived from this narrow layer, although the immunocytochemical study showed no immunola- belling.

In the scaleless snake, mechanical resistance of the skin is limited and the epidermis becomes fold- ed and pliable, as in the epidermis of mammals (Licht and Bennet, 1968). Without an impliant beta-layer, the remaining alpha-layer has insuffi- cient rigidity to resist forces of deformation acting on the skin. "


Not a very long paper, but I didn't see when it was noted that total thickness of the skin is now equivalent to natural skin plus scales. I may have missed it because some scientific terms were unfamiliar. (Apologies if that was the case)

As with most new things in science we will likely figure out, 15 years down the road, that most of what think at first was incomplete or just wrong.

In the meantime who pays the price? The animals. (Likely allot of animals)


How much different is this:
I would love to have a dog but all that slobber is gross and the wet nose is Gross. Now if someone would breed a dog with a dry nose, no tongue and for good measure breed out paws so it's not always running around because that annoying. (The breeders photo would be all over the news and he would become a public enemy overnight)


This scaleless thing turns my stomach.

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[formica]

Originally Posted by Nobodyspecial

Just found this on another site, posted by someone who works for BHB. So it looks like they're out of the egg now. Interesting looking snake, but I'm not really sure how I feel about scaleless snakes just yet.

love the look of it. dont have any ethical issues with experimentation like this myself - for me the ethics only come into play if the snakes are bred and found to suffer as a result of the mutation, and they continue to breed and sell them without any possibility of stopping their suffering by careful care, otherwise, its a fascinating time for naturalists, geneticists and snake fans the world over