The one and ONLY python BAN thread (HR511)

[millertime89]

Welcome to the mad house. I'll respond to your post later. I'm about off work.

[Dehlida]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

March 23rd.

I wonder why I still see so many boas up for sale on fauna?

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by millertime89

its posted somewhere in this thread IIRC. Wayne has graciously agreed to stay out of this thread because he disagrees with the majority sentiment in this thread.

from what i remember (as i'm not re reading this thread) Wayne was all for having LICENCES for ALL large snakes,not banning them (i agree)

i may be wrong though mate

i agree with licencing for large snakes,with if possible a written test,as it stops the " i just want a big snake " idiots,causing grief for our hobby

they are trying to introduce a ban on certain species in europe at the minute

also the APA,have been calling in false BOMB scares and succeding in getting uk shows/expo's called off,imo they are acting like terrorists,and SHOULD be treated as such...!!!

cheers shaun

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Dehlida

I wonder why I still see so many boas up for sale on fauna?

If you're referring to BCI and BCC, then the reason you're seeing them still up for sale everywhere is because they were not included in the final rule change. Only Burmese, both species of Afrocks and the yellow anaconda.

Of course, you also still see ads for those four species. Why? Because people still don't care. One could argue (and I'm sure it has already been debated somewhere in the previous 20+ pages of this thread), that this federal rule change is largely un-enforceable, and the liklihood of actually getting caught shipping a Burm or driving across state lines with one is pretty darn slim to one if you're careful and discreet.

However, all it takes is one screw-up to get caught. One FEDEX package to get opened up and there's another black eye on our industry. Just more ammunition against us ("Those darn reptile people have no regard for even a federal law!"). As much as I absolutely hate this law, and I think it sucks, I really don't think people should be pushing the envelope.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

i agree with licencing for large snakes,with if possible a written test,as it stops the " i just want a big snake " idiots,causing grief for our hobby

Philosophically, I agree. But as I stated somewhat in another thread, such a system would be largely infeasible to accurately implement and enforce.

[StudentoReptile]

Just got done perusing the thread. Don't want to really rehash a lot of stuff that has been repeated many times over, and I'll try to keep my own opinions out of it.

For anyone genuinely interested, I tried to compile all relevant information on one page on my blog. I believe someone already shared it months ago during the heat of this discussion (thanks, Alessia), long before I was even aware this forum existed. This is not me trying to shamelessly plug my blog: I felt led to compile all of the information and sources regarding the so-called "python ban" in one place for this very reason, so people could use it as an archival source.

Here it is: “Python Ban” « Student of the Reptile

One question did seem to pop up more than once from several members, and I don't recall it ever being answered, so I'll take the time to do so. Question(s): Why only Burmese, African Rocks and yellow anacondas? Why not retics and green anacondas? Was there some sort of compromise reached by USARK and the US House of the Interior?

Here is a statement issued by Andrew Wyatt, President of USARK, some time after the rule change was announced:

The Information Quality Act governs the standard of quality of information used to substantiate a federal rule making such as the Constrictor Rule. Because, at the behest of USARK, it was confirmed from scientists round the world that the USGS Constrictor Report was NOT the kind of quality scientific work to base policy or legislative changes on, USARK filed a formal challenge in 2010 of the Constrictor Report in the form of a Request for Correction of the myriad of errors, misstatements and inconsistencies within the document. USGS responded that they were not held to information quality standards under the IQA because their “Grey” paper was NOT deemed at the time of publication to be a “Highly Influential” document; meaning that their estimate of the economic impact of the rule it was supporting fell below the $100 million threshold that constitutes a major rule. Unfortunately for them, USARK commissioned Georgetown Economic Services to do a comprehensive economic assessment of the reptile industry. They researched the entire industry and determined that the rule, in fact, reached beyond the threshold to approximately $104 million. This put the entire rule making process in jeopardy, because now USGS and FWS could be held to account in a federal courtroom for bypassing information quality standards under IQA. After USARK proved that this would indeed fall into major rule territory, White House oversight officials appeared ready to bury the rule…. Until HSUS, The Nature Conservancy and Defenders of Wildlife pressured Florida politicians to ask Obama to push rule through. Then government did what it always does, it compromised. They chose 4 snakes that would not carry the economic impact constituting a major rule and enacted this limited version avoiding the mandatory integrity in science demanded by going after all 9.

The reality of this situation is this… In 2009 Senator Bill Nelson of Florida introduced a bill, S373, that would add all 47 pythons to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act. The bill then passed out of committee and awaited a full vote. USARK was able to convince Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma to place a “HOLD” on the bill because of the economic impact and effectively blocked a full vote; otherwise S373 would have been passed into law in summer 2009. USARK convinced Senator Coburn to renew the hold in 2010 until the conclusion of the 111th Congress killing the bill bill once and for all. Thank you, Senator Coburn!

So just to clarify, the powers that be were ready to toss the thing out because of the economic impact, but the Animal Rights groups pressured them to just include those snakes that fell under that $100 million threshold. It wasn't about which snakes were larger. It wasn't some round-table negotiation where they took half and gave us half (if you take into account 2 other species of anaconda were originally on the bill). It was HSUS and their cohorts doing what they do best: applying enough pressure and influence to get their way...and it worked.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by Dehlida

The ban will not lift, but this is going to create a tremendous "niche" market for those who have burms, and breed large constrictors. Very few people breed them as it is, now lets see, guy in Denver (my state) wants a burm- he can't buy from any other state, only breeders in his state.

Smart breeder knows very few people have the snake or babies for sale, triples/quadruples his price and still gets sales- because there is no where else to legally go for the animals. If you have the room and the time, get into the big constrictors now, it'll pay off big time in a few years.

I wouldn't be shocked if somehow Boas made it to the ban list in the next 1-2 years, and those are a huge staple in the pet trade and do well in a collector/breeder market and are a big easier to house maintain. With chain stores unable to carry them and the demand still there, breeders will make a killing.

Watch for breeders dumping stock as ban waves come in, and don't follow suit. Buy them!

Now I don't do too much reading, but are boas already on the ban list? If so when did the ban officially take effect as I still notice people selling them, hopefully I didn't miss my market chance.

Andrew is hopeful that the lawsuit will yield results, he just needs an additional 150k in donations to get the ball rolling. That's an additional 50% of what they made last year. Not an easy task...

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Philosophically, I agree. But as I stated somewhat in another thread, such a system would be largely infeasible to accurately implement and enforce.

I concur.

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

If you're referring to BCI and BCC, then the reason you're seeing them still up for sale everywhere is because they were not included in the final rule change. Only Burmese, both species of Afrocks and the yellow anaconda.

Of course, you also still see ads for those four species. Why? Because people still don't care. One could argue (and I'm sure it has already been debated somewhere in the previous 20+ pages of this thread), that this federal rule change is largely un-enforceable, and the liklihood of actually getting caught shipping a Burm or driving across state lines with one is pretty darn slim to one if you're careful and discreet.

However, all it takes is one screw-up to get caught. One FEDEX package to get opened up and there's another black eye on our industry. Just more ammunition against us ("Those darn reptile people have no regard for even a federal law!"). As much as I absolutely hate this law, and I think it sucks, I really don't think people should be pushing the envelope.

You can also still sell within your own state. If a breeder in one corner has say a hypo burm for sale there could be a customer who finds them via one of the other boards. The un-enforceability was discussed, but the same conclussion was reached, one slip up is all it would take to give the industry another black eye it doesn't need.

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Just got done perusing the thread. Don't want to really rehash a lot of stuff that has been repeated many times over, and I'll try to keep my own opinions out of it.

For anyone genuinely interested, I tried to compile all relevant information on one page on my blog. I believe someone already shared it months ago during the heat of this discussion (thanks, Alessia), long before I was even aware this forum existed. This is not me trying to shamelessly plug my blog: I felt led to compile all of the information and sources regarding the so-called "python ban" in one place for this very reason, so people could use it as an archival source.

Here it is: “Python Ban” « Student of the Reptile

One question did seem to pop up more than once from several members, and I don't recall it ever being answered, so I'll take the time to do so. Question(s): Why only Burmese, African Rocks and yellow anacondas? Why not retics and green anacondas? Was there some sort of compromise reached by USARK and the US House of the Interior?

Here is a statement issued by Andrew Wyatt, President of USARK, some time after the rule change was announced:



So just to clarify, the powers that be were ready to toss the thing out because of the economic impact, but the Animal Rights groups pressured them to just include those snakes that fell under that $100 million threshold. It wasn't about which snakes were larger. It wasn't some round-table negotiation where they took half and gave us half (if you take into account 2 other species of anaconda were originally on the bill). It was HSUS and their cohorts doing what they do best: applying enough pressure and influence to get their way...and it worked.

It was all discussed already, I know I shared your post. I've still got it bookmarked. Your compilation of the information (as well as the sources you provided, I was the one that asked) was greatly appreciated. I only hope Andrew is successful.

[StudentoReptile]

Like I said, it's what...23 pages, and I kinda speed-read it this afternoon. I probably missed more than one post.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Like I said, it's what...23 pages, and I kinda speed-read it this afternoon. I probably missed more than one post.

Totally, no worries. The only reason this thread got revived is because I asked Dehlida to post her post here and not in another thread.

[jaleely]

I think shaunyboy is correct about wayne.
for what it's worth, i agree. I gave up on this thread ages ago though, but just haaad to stick my nose in again : )

[GarterPython]

Sorry did I miss something.... millertime got banned.... sorry for being off topic but... wow

[jaleely]

He did cross the line, though i was surprised at all that went down.
This thread sucks anyway, it should be off topic *lol*

[GarterPython]

Was it because of the insident with *cough* mykee *cough*

[jaleely]

Yes lol. He went on facebook and posted a private conversation between him and mykee. Against the forum rules! : (

[GarterPython]

That was kind of uncalled for.