Fr ?

[monitorlizard]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

We have several actual biologist, zoologist, scientist and old fashioned hands on experts here.

May I ask who?

[poison123]

Originally Posted by V87

Am I the only one who likes him ?

I don't see anything wrong with him from his threads on snakes. But again I've never talked to him. Still love his info though.

[V87]

Originally Posted by poison123

I don't see anything wrong with him from his threads on snakes. But again I've never talked to him. Still love his info though.

Tbh I was joking I can't stand the bloke ...

[smy_749]

Again guys, I'm not criticizing his husbandry skills or whatever. I'm just pointing out that the dude is an a-hole. There was a simple discussion a bout eggs that stick and eggs that don't, and someone said the exact same thing I said, but since he was a regular, his post was acknowledged as good insight. But when I said it, before him, I was told to go worry about how to house a monitor.

When people say things like, monitors live in the wild 100 feet above the ground, yet beginners like you think the only important thing is calling a cage arboreal because its taller than it is wide, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm we have a long way to go. Even though its generally understood you simply meant a taller cage, not that your going to put a tree in it. He is the type of guy who can never admit being wrong, and even if I said something correct, he would have to say it was wrong, repeat what I said with different wording, and say his is right. Because a beginner can never figure out anything that only he is supposed to know. Hes arrogant and childish in his posts (hahahahhahaahhaah/LOLLLLLLLL/hmmmmmmmmmmm) are things that 12 year olds on warcraft should be typing in their posts.

[monitorlizard]

I haven't had any bad experiences with him, but then again I still have yet to have a bad experience with anyone on a monitor forum.

Whenever I have asked him questions he has never responded in a way that I interpreted as rude. I look at most criticism constructively and do not get easily offended. If I do get offended though, I don't turn the thread into an argument.

Most of the arguments I have seen on various forums involve some kind of misinterpretation, reading something incorrectly, stubbornness, or someone making a personal attack.

A recent thread on kingsnake turned into an argument after infernalis said,"Have you nothing better to do with your time?"

I do find it sad when I see someone on a, for example, Leopard Gecko forum being told not to go on a Varanid forum because they are going to get "based" or something.

Like infernalis said, most of the people arguing are saying the same thing, almost verbatim sometimes. But someone's feelings or pride get hurt and they let emotions take over and then the topic is no longer about the Varanids...

Also, FR does not use academics for many parts of his monitor husbandry(which he has said).

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by monitorlizard

May I ask who?

Hi, how about Dr. David Kirshner (crocdoc), Dr. Daniel Bennett (BodiddleyItis), Prof. Dr. Sam Sweet, the late Dr. Mark Bayless, all have made valuable contributions to the captive care of Varanids for many years on this and many other forums. I`m sure there are other scientists that visited/were members here, too. I have a diploma in zoology, and have done several other animal related courses (not Varanid specific).
Everyone has something to contribute (including the private hobbyist), and (wishful thinking) we might see a day where they LIVE in their thousands rather than DIE, as it is now....
As far as Mr. Frank Retes is concerned, most of us are using many of his methods, and most of the time the advise he offers is great (now and again it`s not so good)... (Shhhh)...
I too was involved in the discussion about whether Lace monitors (V. varius) laid almost exclusively in termite nests in the wild in the more temperate regions, it was tough going, I`m not sure he accepts even now that that`s what they do (but IT IS)!!!

[smy_749]

Perhaps its just me, so I will show you what I mean monitorlizard and you can tell me if you think I'm overreacting, I can be somewhat of a hothead at times. Again, I took his advice, and it was good advice, I'm just referring to his choice of words when giving it.


“I think, your going to have trouble on this forum, at least for a little while.”

“Again, I spend the day(34th year at this spot) and I find reptiles in home shelters. That is the center of their life, their range, their movement, its what they do. Yet ignored. Yet you(many people) dwell on a cage thats taller then wide. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm we have a long way to go. Cheers”

His response about me saying perhaps eggs sticking has to do with predation (nothing to do with the topic at hand) :


“You sir, would be far better off if you learned what a home shelter is to your monitor, then planned a cage to include that for its lifetime.”

“buy a temp gun, you need it for your monitors husbandry, and take it outside and take temps of the world. It will change the way you think. IT will take what you learn in school and make it useless. Please do this.”



What does he think ecologists do? Twiddle their thumbs in the woods and then go home?
When I asked about what temps they are using for hot/cold/basking just as a general idea he suggested I go to varanus rudicollis natural habitat to get the answer…refusing to give me a real answer.


”In order to know that, you must go, find the animal in question, and measure the temps at all times. Thats what I did and do. And it only loosely and very loosely translates to average air temps. “


Just assuming rude things (your a beginner, so I'm going to assume you think in this manner) : “You sound like a beginer, as such you think all those temps and such are meaningful and if you do that, your animal will be great. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm sorry, thats not how it works. Not with monitors.”



When he himself knows that temps are important and they constantly tell people "if something is off, check the temps" or " heat em and feed em" ….nobody would argue that temps aren’t important. And I never said that my animals will be great, but the people on the forum told me to check temps so I did and I'm sure he checks temps when his animals arent doing so hot as well.

[smy_749]

I'm in my last semester of Microbiology, however I just crammed and then forgot most of it at the end of each semester so I although I wish I could help in that department, I dont think I will be of much use :S lol

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by monitorlizard

Most of the arguments I have seen on various forums involve some kind of misinterpretation, reading something incorrectly, stubbornness, or someone making a personal attack.

That's because people like myself don't post on his forum and rarely post on the other forum on which he is a regular. You'd have seen an entirely different type of argument, otherwise.

Most of the arguments I've had with him have been about the behaviour of wild monitors, particularly lace monitors, which both of us keep and breed (although I don't think he's breeding them any more, as he's run out of females). He's been to Australia a handful of times on holiday, I live here. Consequently I see more lace monitors in the wild in an average year than he'll see in his lifetime, yet he would argue endlessly with me about what they do or don't do in the wild (and the attacks started with him). Sure, to most of you, arguments about the behaviour of wild monitors is academic, since you're keeping captives and will probably never see one in the wild, however sometimes the behaviour of wild monitors can influence how they are kept in captivity. FR loves to tell people that his trips to Australia were fact-finding trips that changed the way he kept them and also to find out information on breeding them, so he claimed that to him the behaviour of wild monitors was very important in determining his husbandry.

The last big argument we had concerned him ignoring a crucial behaviour of wild lace monitors (nesting in termite mounds), to the point of denying that it's a common occurrence (like one would be able to tell from an armchair in front of a computer in AZ) and consequently being responsible for the death of several (if not all) of his female lace monitors, through poor nesting. His followers, who had never been to Australia, assumed he must be right and tried to join in the argument. It was bizarre.

Our other big point of difference is this:

Originally Posted by monitorlizard

Also, FR does not use academics for many parts of his monitor husbandry(which he has said).

It is one thing not to use academic literature for husbandry but it's something else again to go on an anti-science, academic-bashing rant at every opportunity.

smy_749, in answer to your question:

Originally Posted by smy_749

What does he think ecologists do? Twiddle their thumbs in the woods and then go home?

Yes, he does think that. He thinks that he sees things no academic does (how he missed the scars in termite mounds while on a lace monitor fact-finding trip to Australia is beyond me). He constantly carries on about field biologists and academics, mainly because he doesn't understand the science.

Don't get me wrong, most academic publications aren't helpful towards captive husbandry. That is not their aim, because people that study wild animals don't publish articles with the intention in mind of improving captive husbandry - they are interested in the behaviour of wild animals.

However, sometimes scientific publications on wild animals can be very helpful to husbandry. Many years ago I tried telling FR about one item in particular that would have saved him (in hindsight, many years later) a lot of grief, but instead we had one of our first big fights. I used the information and have been producing baby monitors ever since.

I've heard many people say that, in person, he's a nice guy. Online, however, his goal above all else seems to be self-aggrandizement rather than the promotion of good monitor husbandry.

[monitorlizard]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

That's because people like myself don't post on his forum and rarely post on the other forum on which he is a regular. You'd have seen an entirely different type of argument, otherwise.

I like to look at them as heated debates.

The last big argument we had concerned him ignoring a crucial behaviour of wild lace monitors (nesting in termite mounds), to the point of denying that it's a common occurrence (like one would be able to tell from an armchair in front of a computer in AZ) and consequently being responsible for the death of several (if not all) of his female lace monitors, through poor nesting. His followers, who had never been to Australia, assumed he must be right and tried to join in the argument. It was bizarre.

Could you send me a link to this/these threads.
They sound like good reads!

It is one thing not to use academic literature for husbandry but it's something else again to go on an anti-science, academic-bashing rant at every opportunity.

Could you send me a link to one of these rants as well?

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by monitorlizard

I like to look at them as heated debates.


Could you send me a link to this/these threads.
They sound like good reads!


Could you send me a link to one of these rants as well?

Hi, I don`t have links, but these are the details of a couple of discussions both David (crocdoc) and myself were involved in with Frank Retes;

Page 61, on varanus.net; Thread title: Re: Nesting 2 (17th Feb 2012) By Frank Retes.
Page 3 on Kingsnake.com (started feb 10th 2012) by Frank Retes; Thread title: "Whole cage nesting".

You might need an hour or so to get through it all, but there`s some great and not-so-great info being offered, I`ll let you decide which is which!
I actually got an apology of sorts after it had finished, but I`m still not sure Frank`s convinced of what we were trying to get across!?

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by monitorlizard

Could you send me a link to one of these rants as well?

a couple months later....

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by infernalis

a couple months later....

Hi Wayne, a few months ago Frank stated he didn`t want any links posted of his threads on other websites, and I think we should respect that decision, though obviously anyone can visit those sites and read the threads, or is this not the same thing, being as we were both involved in those discussions? (I
trust your opinion on this). EDIT: I see you`re showing the Kingsnake.com threads, so the above comments don`t apply, and you at least can link to those!

[monitorlizard]

The last one looks like it is from Varanus.net.

[monitorlizard]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, I don`t have links, but these are the details of a couple of discussions both David (crocdoc) and myself were involved in with Frank Retes;

Page 61, on varanus.net; Thread title: Re: Nesting 2 (17th Feb 2012) By Frank Retes.
Page 3 on Kingsnake.com (started feb 10th 2012) by Frank Retes; Thread title: "Whole cage nesting".

You might need an hour or so to get through it all, but there`s some great and not-so-great info being offered, I`ll let you decide which is which!
I actually got an apology of sorts after it had finished, but I`m still not sure Frank`s convinced of what we were trying to get across!?

I'm going to wait until tomorrow to read it so I have more time. That's quite a lot of reading to digest...