Mild HOTS - Mass Information Needed

[MDT]

hey jendee...the venom really isn't a location variable dependent issue. it's def more of a how much was injected and your physical condition at the time. i was recently asked to give an "expert opinion" on a snakebite case where anti venom was withheld because "snakes around here aren't that 'poisonous' ". this was clearly a mistake. a bite can be misconstrued as a "no big deal" only because it may have been a dry bite, or possibly a mild envenomation (bites really are a dynamic problem rather than a static problem...i've seen bites go from what appeared to be mild in the field to fairly significant by the time they got to the ER)...

as far as your kiddos go and their allergic responses to insect bites, that will have no bearing on venom from a snakebite. two totally diff issues. yes, *most* hospitals do keep anti venom (CroFab) on hand, and if they don't, you would need to be transferred to one that does. as far as tying off, no....don't do that. your best "first responder" treatment is rapid transport to hospital. in most cases in oklahoma, you're gonna get to a facility pretty quickly.

don't know if any of this helped....to the OP, sorry to highjack thread. jendee, feel free to ask if you need any other info.

good to find another okie on the board....maybe we'll bump into each other at a show sometime...

[Jeepers]

Originally Posted by NBLADE

Falsies are great snakes, very impressive looking and can get to a decent size, i've had a 9ft male, and still keep them now.

Hognoses can give a good bite, i've never had an issue with them, but a friend of mine was bitten 5 yrs ago in the gap between thumb and hand, and she spent a week in hospital from it, and to this day still gets pain in the bite area. But this is very rare and most people suffer nothing more than a bit of localized swelling.

Mangroves used to be on our DWA (dangerous wild animal) license up until a few years ago, due to the severity of their bites, a mangrove bite will certainly ruin your week, and can cause some real nasty looking bites.

this was a mangrove bite, (not me or my picture)



But they are very nice looking snakes, and are great to keep, should just be treated with caution.

Vine snakes are also very nice, but they are quite fragile, and stress very easily, so are very much look but don't touch snakes really.

Yeah, I read that, should one escape, you may end up injuring it just trying to get it contained again due to how fragole the Vine Snakes are.

Thanks for the information! That does definitely look like a nasty bite! Every snake should be treated with caution, but these obviously need a little more attention to detail than your everyday python.

Originally Posted by MDT

don't know if any of this helped....to the OP, sorry to highjack thread. jendee, feel free to ask if you need any other info.

good to find another okie on the board....maybe we'll bump into each other at a show sometime...

Oh, naw, you're fine!

[stephanbakir]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

CFCs are Chinese False cobras. They are rear-fanged, and stand up to hood much like the true Naja.

They look like this
Keep in mind that while there is a pinky mouse in this photo... 99% of them will only eat frogs.

Originally Posted by Jeepers

I was also considering a Mangrove Snake. I've admired these beauties for sooo long but I had no clue they were rear-fanged.

Boiga are pretty tricky, they can be a royal pain to feed too.

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by Jendee

what about copperheads?? I know nothing of venomous snakes (putting that out there first lol) but I live in copper head central and have been told a bite from a copper head is more like a whasp attack

Who told you that, and what were they smoking? Copperhead bites are no joke. They are usually not lethal to a healthy adult, but they can be. Just last summer someone died of a Copperhead bite, and shattered a lot of perceptions about the strength of their venom... I can find you that article if you'd like.

Honestly, the lethality of the bite shouldn't be of much concern.. You should not be getting into venomous snakes at all if you have concerns that you will be bit, because any venomous snake does have the potential to cause a very serious envenomation. All it takes is for you have a severe allergic reaction to the venom, and you might die, just like you could die from a bee sting. In short, your first priority should be avoiding a bite, not surviving one.

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

Who told you that, and what were they smoking? Copperhead bites are no joke. They are usually not lethal to a healthy adult, but they can be. Just last summer someone died of a Copperhead bite, and shattered a lot of perceptions about the strength of their venom... I can find you that article if you'd like.

Honestly, the lethality of the bite shouldn't be of much concern.. You should not be getting into venomous snakes at all if you have concerns that you will be bit, because any venomous snake does have the potential to cause a very serious envenomation. All it takes is for you have a severe allergic reaction to the venom, and you might die, just like you could die from a bee sting. In short, your first priority should be avoiding a bite, not surviving one.

Nicely stated.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

Honestly, the lethality of the bite shouldn't be of much concern.. You should not be getting into venomous snakes at all if you have concerns that you will be bit, because any venomous snake does have the potential to cause a very serious envenomation. All it takes is for you have a severe allergic reaction to the venom, and you might die, just like you could die from a bee sting. In short, your first priority should be avoiding a bite, not surviving one.

Pirarucu...your statements regrading copperhead bites are spot on. I would say however, that allergic response to venom is really not an issue. Many people are allergic to bees/wasps only because they have been "exposed" to their venom previously. Similarly, in the "old days" when we treated snakebites with the Wyeth Polyvalent antivenin (horse serum), lots of people were allergic to that as they had been exposed to various horse related proteins in their past. With the venom itself, unless you've developed an allergy from a previous encounter with a venomous snake, you should worry more about the destructive nature of the venom rather than an allergic reaction...not to say that allergic reactions never happen, and apart from my experience clinically and reading the literature, i haven't had to intervene in an allergic response from the venom itself. I have had to many times intervene in an allergic response to the treatment for the bite. Just throwing this out there...

oh, and if you come across the info on the copperhead fatality, would you please PM the source to me? I'd like to include that in my data base for lectures....Thanks!!

[Will0W783]

As others have mentioned, copperhead bites are a serious envenomation. In fact, in the US they have the highest morbidity rate of any native venomous snake. This means that, while the bite might not kill, they cause the highest rates of complications, permanent damage and reactions. Many hospitals do not give antivenin because they are under the impression that copperhead bites are no big deal, so the individuals suffer and have more tissue and nerve damage than is necessary. I personally own two copperheads, and have fed them live once. They were each given a mouse fuzzy...they struck and within 30 seconds the mouse was dead. That's quick....now a mouse is a lot smaller than a human, but it was a nasty looking death.

Earlier in the century, people kept boomslangs because everyone thought the bite was not serious as they are rear-fanged. It wasn't until a significant number of people had died from boomslang envenomation that research was conducted to determine their toxicity. Currently, boomslangs and twig snakes are the only two rear-fanged snakes thought capable of life-threatening envenomation to a healthy person. However, there's no telling how you would react to any venom, so even a hognose bite could cause serious problems for some people.

Point being, there is no such thing as a "safe" venomous snake, and all should be treated with extreme caution.

[Jendee]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

Who told you that, and what were they smoking? Copperhead bites are no joke. They are usually not lethal to a healthy adult, but they can be. Just last summer someone died of a Copperhead bite, and shattered a lot of perceptions about the strength of their venom... I can find you that article if you'd like.

Honestly, the lethality of the bite shouldn't be of much concern.. You should not be getting into venomous snakes at all if you have concerns that you will be bit, because any venomous snake does have the potential to cause a very serious envenomation. All it takes is for you have a severe allergic reaction to the venom, and you might die, just like you could die from a bee sting. In short, your first priority should be avoiding a bite, not surviving one.

lol I have even been told you don't need to go to the hospital unless your a child.(in regards to copper heads) But this is from local rednecks, when I first moved to texas from cali. I will never keep hots (don't know if that was directed towards me) but where Im located they are every where we have a forest and part off a giant lake and the break off ponds right behind my house and I worry everyday about my children being bit. One yr when the creek bed dried my son 5 at the time stepped right on a cotton mouth that happened to be the same color as the creek rock. I didn't even see him nobody did until he opened his mouth to strike it went right between his chicken legs. I about had a stroke that day once I got him in the house and it all hit me, emotion took over!! so now venomous snakes scare the do doo outta me and I can never understand why anybody would take that risk

[Jeepers]

Originally Posted by Jendee

lol I have even been told you don't need to go to the hospital unless your a child.(in regards to copper heads) But this is from local rednecks, when I first moved to texas from cali. I will never keep hots (don't know if that was directed towards me) but where Im located they are every where we have a forest and part off a giant lake and the break off ponds right behind my house and I worry everyday about my children being bit. One yr when the creek bed dried my son 5 at the time stepped right on a cotton mouth that happened to be the same color as the creek rock. I didn't even see him nobody did until he opened his mouth to strike it went right between his chicken legs. I about had a stroke that day once I got him in the house and it all hit me, emotion took over!! so now venomous snakes scare the do doo outta me and I can never understand why anybody would take that risk

Well, it takes training for sure. Someone that has lots of experience with HOTS should always train you on how to properly care for them and handle them.

Secondly, though the bite can be fatal(even a hognose snake bite can be VERY serious if you have an allergic reaction), it doesn't bother me. Yes, I obviously don't want to be bitten, but if you practice proper HOT handling(snake-hooking, etc.), then you should be fine. Now, obviously that's not always the case, and even the most experienced handlers have an oopsy, but it does greatly reduce the chances.

Also consider, that was in the wild. They have more than enough things to hide in and easily become invisible to the eye. At least when you -own- them you know that they're there in your house and contained. As far as hiding in their own enclosure, I'd personally want to find the bugger, by just looking around without opening it, before trying to get it out. Though, for the arboreals, I know sometimes it's just HARD to find them by looking. I've had other arboreal reptiles and they stayed under all the vines and other foliage, made them impossible to find without rotating the enclosure or sticking my hand in there to move things around(weren't venomous or anything, so that's all fine in that situation).

As for kids, if you have hots(and in my opinion, any reptile except calmer ones like beardies, leopard geckos, etc.), keep a secure lock on the room for them.

Not trying to change your mind or anything, I'm just stating why that experience would not bother me when it comes to owning them vs. facing them in the wild.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by MDT

Pirarucu...your statements regrading copperhead bites are spot on. I would say however, that allergic response to venom is really not an issue. Many people are allergic to bees/wasps only because they have been "exposed" to their venom previously. Similarly, in the "old days" when we treated snakebites with the Wyeth Polyvalent antivenin (horse serum), lots of people were allergic to that as they had been exposed to various horse related proteins in their past. With the venom itself, unless you've developed an allergy from a previous encounter with a venomous snake, you should worry more about the destructive nature of the venom rather than an allergic reaction...not to say that allergic reactions never happen, and apart from my experience clinically and reading the literature, i haven't had to intervene in an allergic response from the venom itself. I have had to many times intervene in an allergic response to the treatment for the bite. Just throwing this out there...

oh, and if you come across the info on the copperhead fatality, would you please PM the source to me? I'd like to include that in my data base for lectures....Thanks!!

So I don't do much research into snake venom and the antivenin as I was under the impression that the "horse serum" was still in production. How is CroFab made?

[RandyRhoads]

Originally Posted by MDT

lots of people were allergic to that as they had been exposed to various horse related proteins in their past.

What kind of freaky people do you hang out with.

[Corey209]

Mangrove snake

Mussurana

Mock viper

[MDT]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

So I don't do much research into snake venom and the antivenin as I was under the impression that the "horse serum" was still in production. How is CroFab made?

Aaron, I believe Wyeth stopped production of the polyvalent horse serum anti venom a few years back. CroFab has become the standard of care with regard to North American pit viper bites. It is made from sheep immunoglobulins that have been purified to basically remove the antigenic portion of the molecule and leave the "good" parts. The sheep are injected with venom from the Eastern and Western diamond back rattlesnakes, the Mojave, and the Cottonmouth....The immunoglobulins are extracted, treated with a substance to cleave the molecule into two fragments: one fragment is the more "allergic producing" fragment, the other is the fragment that will neutralize the venom.

There are still labs (not in the US) that still use horse serum for certain species, but most are using the Ovine (sheep) model now. I think though, that Wyeth has even ceased production of the coral snake anti venom (it was horse serum based as well).

[MDT]

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

What kind of freaky people do you hang out with.

really freaky

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by MDT

Aaron, I believe Wyeth stopped production of the polyvalent horse serum anti venom a few years back. CroFab has become the standard of care with regard to North American pit viper bites. It is made from sheep immunoglobulins that have been purified to basically remove the antigenic portion of the molecule and leave the "good" parts. The sheep are injected with venom from the Eastern and Western diamond back rattlesnakes, the Mojave, and the Cottonmouth....The immunoglobulins are extracted, treated with a substance to cleave the molecule into two fragments: one fragment is the more "allergic producing" fragment, the other is the fragment that will neutralize the venom.

There are still labs (not in the US) that still use horse serum for certain species, but most are using the Ovine (sheep) model now. I think though, that Wyeth has even ceased production of the coral snake anti venom (it was horse serum based as well).

Thanks for the tips. I had known several years back that sheep were starting to be used but I thought they still did both. You learn a bit more everyday!