Ventilation, acidosis and blood chemistry - Page 2

MDT · 02-05-13, 02:04 PM

unless you had a hyperbaric chamber, i'm not sure you're gonna have a "pressure diff" when you open the enclosure. I really think you're gonna still be at around 15 psi....inside and outside the enclosure....not trying to be a jerk, i promise, i just not sure you're gonna see a true physiologic change with what you describe. CO2 narcosis will occur with retention of too much CO2 and you will become very drowsy/somnolent in this state. oh well... let us know how it goes...

dinosaurdammit · 02-05-13, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

unless you had a hyperbaric chamber, i'm not sure you're gonna have a "pressure diff" when you open the enclosure. I really think you're gonna still be at around 15 psi....inside and outside the enclosure....not trying to be a jerk, i promise, i just not sure you're gonna see a true physiologic change with what you describe. CO2 narcosis will occur with retention of too much CO2 and you will become very drowsy/somnolent in this state. oh well... let us know how it goes...

it runs on the same principle as if you have a door open upstairs but open an outside door the one upstairs slams. I should mention that plexiglass isnt the thickest stuff but id you do just open wide the door there is resistance and the glass bows in a bit

murrindindi · 02-05-13, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

I really don't know the *clinical* relevance in these instances, if the animal in question is thriving, you are probably "doing it right". We learned something in med school which was "treat the patient and not the monitor"....I applaud the seeking of knowledge and since precious little is known about varanid physiology, any bit of gained knowledge is a good thing. However, let's say you pull some blood from the lizard, and it happens to be arterial, and you happen to have a blood gas analyzer right there to accept the iced sample, and it happen to indicate a metabolic acidosis or alkalosis....then what? Do you open the cage to let more air in (room air is approx 21% O2), do you have a respiratory acidosis or a metabolic alkalosis? who do you call? I would venture that most of you guys on this board are better versed in varanid husbandry than a vast majority of veterinarians. I am continually impressed with the fund of knowledge you guys have and the dedication you have in caring for your animals. i hope there is a way to evaluate the questions you are asking, but if not, I don't think you guys need to worry....

Hi, there`s actually quite a lot known about Varanid physiology these days, in fact much work has been and is being done. Still, we don`t have all the answers, so it`s most important to keep searching. I totally agree, many vets have even more to learn!

MDT · 02-05-13, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, there`s actually quite a lot known about Varanid physiology these days, in fact much work has been and is being done. Still, we don`t have all the answers, so it`s most important to keep searching. I totally agree, many vets have even more to learn!

i was speaking in terms of human/canine/etc....

Pirarucu · 02-05-13, 04:04 PM

I really like this post. We need more discussions like this.

Personally I do not think it would make a difference. Opening and closing the door for maintenance would provide more than adequate air exchange. Plus, it would not make a lot of sense for a burrowing animal to be intolerant of slightly below average air quality.. Arboreal rainforest monitors are the only ones I can imagine this having an effect on, if the door was opened infrequently. Even then I would guess it would be so minuscule as to be undetectable.
In a completely sealed environment it would eventually be detrimental, but I doubt many people are keeping their monitors in completely sealed cages...

murrindindi · 02-05-13, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I really like this post. We need more discussions like this.

Personally I do not think it would make a difference. Opening and closing the door for maintenance would provide more than adequate air exchange. Plus, it would not make a lot of sense for a burrowing animal to be intolerant of slightly below average air quality.. Arboreal rainforest monitors are the only ones I can imagine this having an effect on, if the door was opened infrequently. Even then I would guess it would be so minuscule as to be undetectable.
In a completely sealed environment it would eventually be detrimental, but I doubt many people are keeping their monitors in completely sealed cages...

Hi, in what respect would arborial forest monitors suffer more in captivity?
I`m only asking because I`m interested in why you think that, not because I`m criticising what you`ve said. Thanks!

infernalis · 02-05-13, 04:22 PM

Varanids have been documented as entering a state of aestivation during periods of drought and other harsh conditions that would kill lesser animals.

I believe that they have also been known to backfill their own burrow once inside, that would completely block any airflow within the burrow.

Also one of the very few animals to take advantage of wildfires by sticking around and gobbling up other animals as they drop dead from the smoke and heat.

MDT · 02-05-13, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I really like this post. We need more discussions like this.

but I doubt many people are keeping their monitors in completely sealed cages...

yes...this is a good thread, and i appreciate the back and forth of exchanging ideas. Years ago (1986) I had a Sav that I acquired from a frat dude when i was in college (he couldn't keep in the frat house). His husbandry was atrocious, and now that I read how you guys keep your monitors, mine wasn't much better (even though I thought I was "doing it better" because I was a "reptile guy"...)

And, Pirarucu, i would agree w/ you....Our enclosures are essentially a porous environment, O2/CO2 concentration will likely be equivalent inside vs outside cage as would be barometric pressure.

MDT · 02-05-13, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

Also one of the very few animals to take advantage of wildfires by sticking around and gobbling up other animals as they drop dead from the smoke and heat.

this is amazing and pretty cool...

infernalis · 02-05-13, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, in what respect would arborial forest monitors suffer more in captivity?

I am curious how you gleaned that from this....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

it would not make a lot of sense for a burrowing animal to be intolerant of slightly below average air quality.. Arboreal rainforest monitors are the only ones I can imagine this having an effect on, if the door was opened infrequently. Even then I would guess it would be so minuscule as to be undetectable.

What I make of the post is that Pirarucu stated that he feels that air quality may or may not be more important to an arboreal monitor than a burrowing terrestrial monitor.

However, I do notice the use of the word "intolerant" where I am pretty sure he meant "tolerant"

Pirarucu · 02-05-13, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, in what respect would arborial forest monitors suffer more in captivity?
I`m only asking because I`m interested in why you think that, not because I`m criticising what you`ve said. Thanks!

Well, animals such as those in the prasinus complex don't spend a lot of time in burrows, or even on the ground. The higher up you are, the less stagnant the air is. In addition, rainforests are of course full of plants, and plants put off oxygen. Those two things combined mean the air quality in the rainforest canopy is somewhat high.
Of course, the air on savannas would not be particularly shabby outside of burrows, since there would be fewer things obstructing air flow than at least the lower levels of the rainforest.

murrindindi · 02-05-13, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

I am curious how you gleaned that from this....

What I make of the post is that Pirarucu stated that he feels that air quality may or may not be more important to an arboreal monitor than a burrowing terrestrial monitor.

However, I do notice the use of the word "intolerant" where I am pretty sure he meant "tolerant"

If Pirarucu thinks that it might make a difference to an arborial forest monitor, I wondered why he/she thought it may (even in a very small way), is that not a reasonable question to ask the OP?
Edit: I`ve just seen Pirarucu`s reply: Almost ALL species will burrow to some extent if given the opportunity (that means retiring to them during the night at times if the main heating and lighting are turned off), it depends as always, on what the keeper provides (many hiding places throughout, so lots to choose from!

Pirarucu · 02-05-13, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

I am curious how you gleaned that from this....

What I make of the post is that Pirarucu stated that he feels that air quality may or may not be more important to an arboreal monitor than a burrowing terrestrial monitor.

However, I do notice the use of the word "intolerant" where I am pretty sure he meant "tolerant"

You are correct.
I did mean intolerant, as I said it would not make sense if they were intolerant, therefore they are clearly tolerant of below average air quality.

Pirarucu · 02-05-13, 04:44 PM

We're arguing semantics now....

infernalis · 02-05-13, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murrindindi

If Pirarucu thinks that it might make a difference to an arborial forest monitor, I wondered why he/she thought it may (even in a very small way), is that not a reasonable question to ask the OP?

Yes it is a very reasonable question.

Personally, I would love nothing more than to build a room 20 feet tall with some live tropical trees inside and truly watch a beccarii or prasinus make use of it.

Not arguing semantics at all, Stefan and I have some wonderful conversations, but sometimes we wind up on a different page because of word confusion.

That's all.. makes it easier to hold the conversation when we clarify what it is being asked.