Feeding Questions

[rmfsnakes32]

We feed all of ours live always have for years we supervise the feedings and our snakes are pefectly fine no scars scrapes or anything.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Snakey-Jay-BRB

So your saying there's not a risk of the snake getting injured then?!

[sigh....] No I am not. You're putting words in my mouth. Read the post again. I said "Healthy snakes set-up in a proper habitat should have no problems dealing with live prey."

Yes, I will concur there is zero risk of a snake getting injured from a dead prey item. Happy?
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However, one thing many people do not consider is how much bacteria you are exposing your frozen feeders to as you thaw them out. Anyone done studies on this? I mean, you basically just leaving a dead animal exposed to the open air, sometimes underneath or near a heat lamp, or in warm water. Indeed, there are cases of snakes eating dead prey in the wild, but usually recently-killed prey....not frozen prey thawed out. Most snakes eat fresh prey; i.e. live, that they either kill themselves or depending on the prey item or species, they don't kill it at all!

People rave about rats and mice biting and injuring their snake, but in nearly every case, it is error on the keeper's part. The rodent was left unattended. Wrong thing to do. Snake wasn't hungry?; well, why wasn't it hungry? Temps and habitat probably wasn't right. Either way, you shouldn't leave the prey in there unsupervised.

In my experience, a healthy snake will strike and grab the prey within a few minutes of being offered food. If that doesn't happen, its probably not going to eat at all. Either its in shed mode, or you're doing something wrong.

"Well, what if he strikes and grabs the rat wrong and it starts chewing on his neck?" So? Snakes have been grabbing their prey sideways, on the butt, by the spine, etc, for millions of years. Again, if they're healthy, and the habitat is set-up right with proper temps, they'd heal up fine. You can treat them with some antiseptic ointment to spead things along, but they'll be fine. Obviously, if the injury is serious, treat accordingly, but in my experience, when I have had a snake suffer a bite from a rodent during a ill-aimed feeding strike-n-coil, it was never anything serious. Again, if you have a healthy snake and you're doing things right, you should have little to worry about.

Unless its a problem feeder there's nothing to be gained from live feeding but there is a lot to be lost.

I disagree. See above comments. Live prey = fresh meat = healthier food in my book. And I take care of my snakes well enough so that when I put a live rodent in front of them, they eat it.

Frozen/prekilled feeding does have its merits, but if you do things right, feeding live is not the hazardous risky endeavor a lot of ignorant whiners claim it is.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

sorry, cant give you any pro's to feeding live..........

I can!

Pros to live prey:
- Stronger feeding response to finicky eaters
- fresh meat (as opposed to frozen/thawed that may be exposed to bacteria)
- more natural scent/odor to the snake (frozen/thawed has a different scent)
- easier for the keeper (opposed to having to count out and thaw out how many feeders you need)
- less wasteful (any prey not eaten can be thrown into the tub and eaten another day!)

[Snakefood]

First off - I take exception to the ignorant whiner comment, TOTALLY unneccesary just because we choose to feed pre-killed.

Secondly, using the 'in the wild" card is a completely mute point,
A) our animals ARE NOT WILD

B) wild animals of any species rarely (read: almost never) live to the age that thier domesticated counterparts do, so obviously treating them differently than wild animals does make a noticable difference.

Now, I am not judging you for feeding live, and really dont want to beat the stinky dead horse of this particular subject, however calling those of us with "the feeding killed is safer mentalitly" names IS something I will take you to task about.

[SnakeyJay]

Studentofreptile... Firstly try not to sound so condescending, as your wording would have been taken that way by a newb who knows no better...

I see your points and your right about some things.. However most people don't have that mellow view on their snakes getting hurt. "It will heal up fine with the proper set up" is not acceptable for a lot of keepers. These animals are not in the wild, therefor they shouldn't have to be injured like a wild snake when there's no need.

Yes, meat that is frozen does deteriorate over long periods of time, but the OP has only one royal python, so it's highly unlikely that she would be buying bulk and have the prey in the freezer for that long.

At the end of the day, if you've payed money for an animal why would you want to see it hurt or scarred needlessly...

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

First off - I take exception to the ignorant whiner comment, TOTALLY unneccesary just because we choose to feed pre-killed.

Secondly, using the 'in the wild" card is a completely mute point,
A) our animals ARE NOT WILD

B) wild animals of any species rarely (read: almost never) live to the age that thier domesticated counterparts do, so obviously treating them differently than wild animals does make a noticable difference.

Now, I am not judging you for feeding live, and really dont want to beat the stinky dead horse of this particular subject,

Stop whining....j/k....or maybe not...just chill out, ok?

My comment was not directed at you personally, just a general comment to the collective demographic of hobbyists that this mentality is instilled into; "their snake HAS to eat frozen/thawed, and feeding live is TOTALLY irresponsible!" etc etc....as Gregg may put it, it's just regurgitated inaccurate information passed down on and on by a lot of people who little experience keeping snakes correctly.

Careful with that word "domesticated" when talking about reptiles! While yes, these are captive snakes living in plastic and glass boxes being fed white lab mice instead of normal prey, and they don't have to deal with predators or disease...they still behave, think and act like their wild counterparts...and their feeding behavior is included in that. That is why I made that example.

however calling those of us with "the feeding killed is safer mentalitly" names IS something I will take you to task about.

"Ignorant" really isn't an insult, especially the term is applicable. It simply means the person(s) in question are not that knowledgeable on said subject. It is a very curable condition. It's not like I called anyone stupid or moronic.

"Whiner" I admit, is a bit more derogatory...but based on my observations over the past couple decades (and your last post)....well, if the shoe fits!

[Snakefood]

so long as "the shoe fitting is being discussed...... arrogant comes to mind

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Snakey-Jay-BRB

Studentofreptile... Firstly try not to sound so condescending, as your wording would have been taken that way by a newb who knows no better...

Sorry, sometimes I simply do not see the need to sugar-coat things. I don't think what I said was overly condescending or derogatory (compared to some other members here), and quite simply, it's how newbs learn. If they are more concerned about having feel-good feelings than acquiring good advice, then they probably aren't going to learn much anyway.

I see your points and your right about some things.. However most people don't have that mellow view on their snakes getting hurt. "It will heal up fine with the proper set up" is not acceptable for a lot of keepers. These animals are not in the wild, therefor they shouldn't have to be injured like a wild snake when there's no need.

Yes, meat that is frozen does deteriorate over long periods of time, but the OP has only one royal python, so it's highly unlikely that she would be buying bulk and have the prey in the freezer for that long.

At the end of the day, if you've payed money for an animal why would you want to see it hurt or scarred needlessly...

Perhaps I'm reading too much into that last bit, but don't think that I and others who think similarly don't care for our animals, and "needlessly" put them in harm's way. I merely pointed out that the risk is much more minimal when you do it right and you are caring for your animals correctly.

If people are that concerned about the occasional nip received by a persnickity prey, are they concerned the snake might poke its eye out by rubbing by a branch or rock in the enclosure? I mean, where do you draw the line? You can't put the snake in a safety bubble, folks.

That's why I feel very strongly about this issue. Feeding frozen/thawed is pushed for folks who want it "easy." They want something they can just toss in the the tank and not worry about it biting. Well, a lot of folks leave the thawed out rat in there all night and the snake never eats it. That's just gross IMHO...just lying there harboring more and more bacteria and making the enclosure more unsanitary. I'm not saying that everyone who chooses to feed F/T does that, but the "noob" demographic is instilled this mentality by petstores, which, let's face it, are not known for accurate husbandry info, right? Snake is probably not being kept that ideally already, and the F/T is "safer" for a unhealthy snake.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

so long as "the shoe fitting is being discussed...... arrogant comes to mind

I'll wear it...because I have the experience that earned it. Someone tell me anything I just posted was wrong.

[Snakefood]

It's not about whether you are wrong or not, neither side of this particular subject is wrong. We, who feed pre-killed or frozen are not harming our snakes either. And suggesting a new snake owner not feed live actually has its merrits, since that person does not have your experience and thier snake COULD end up with quite severe wounds because of it.

Not worth it in my books, if it is in yours.... well, your call.

[StudentoReptile]

Well, my general view would be that they need to get their husbandry correct before they worry about what method of feeding they choose. If they do, then the snake stands a better chance of eating whatever they stick in front of it; no waiting, no "zombie dancing" or wasted thawed out prey because it "wasn't" hungry.

[SnakeyJay]

Since when is frozen thawed the easy way? I choose it for the safety of my pet, cost effective and the fact that my gf won't have live days in our place... Putting live in and closing the door sounds easier than trying to coax a snakes interest, and letting it strike.
I have no problems feeding live, it's actually interesting to see.
There's a time and a place for it, however a newbs first snake with none of your vast experience is not it

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Snakey-Jay-BRB

Since when is frozen thawed the easy way? I choose it for the safety of my pet, cost effective and the fact that my gf won't have live days in our place... Putting live in and closing the door sounds easier than trying to coax a snakes interest, and letting it strike.

You are right; "easy" and "cost effective" are all subjective. For some it is more cost effective to raise and breed their own live feeders than pay through the nose to have bulk frozen shipped.

I have no problems feeding live, it's actually interesting to see.

And you know what, I'm not diametrically opposed to frozen either. I have a bag of rats in my freezer, but they are mainly "back-up" in case my rodent supplier runs short. Its about the same price per rodent to get them from the breeder up the street as it is for frozen, and I don't have to worry about storing them, or paying $$$ to ship.

There's a time and a place for it, however a newbs first snake with none of your vast experience is not it

It's really funny you word it like that. The first snake I got was a ball python, and I started out feeding him live. Never had a problem. Same went for the all the ratsnakes and kingsnakes and boas I kept back in the mid-90s. This was before frozen feeders were readily available to the average keeper as they are now. For years, nearly everyone fed live, and I don't think the "prey biting back" was a big issue. As I think about it, I would wager people started beating that drum was when one started seeing more snakes in petstores, especially the big chains like Petco and Petsmart, the latter which adamantly doesn't sell live feeders and pushes their "mice on ice."

I'm not saying that rodent-caused injuries on snakes never happened; obviously, they did on occasion. We've seen the pictures. But again, you have to take into account the entire situation, why those incidents happened = negligence on the part of the keeper. There was a surge of "newbs" to the hobby; these were (and still are) "pet" owners. This is the crowd that likes the hamsters in the runaround balls, and the parakeets with their little toys, and think a snake fits in that same world. There is the inherent difference between "pet owners" and hobbyists. I know a lot of people who own herps that I do not consider hobbyists. They just keep a few herps as "pets." So with that mentality, there was a larger demographic of folks that did not have the know-how of keeping reptiles; they just wanted a cool animal that they could throw in a glass tank that they can handle whenever they wanted.

...and this still happens today.
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I say, what is easier for the keeper is not always healthier for the animal. Think about that.

Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with the "better safe than sorry" route, but I ask again, where do you draw the line? Do you stop walking your dog because you fear it will get run over by a car?

LOL, Brian Barcyck of BHB Enterprises and SnakebytesTV said in an interview once, he has this one really cool morph BP he hatched out. One of kind, worth a lot (I'm not really into BPs so I forget the name). Anyway, he came in one day and somehow the snake had tipped over its water bowl over on top itself. Still wet, the bowl formed a seal around the paper towel (or newspaper?) and the snake suffocated. I mean, freak accident, right? SO is every snake keeper going to start hot-gluing their water bowls to the bottom of the cage? LOL....and how many snakes does Brian own? He produces thousands each year alone.

[SnakeyJay]

I consider myself both a pet owner and a hobbiest... But I do see your reasoning for where do we draw the line... Well I guess I draw the line at what a snake can do to itself by accident and what another animal can do to it while still alive.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Snakey-Jay-BRB

I consider myself both a pet owner and a hobbiest... But I do see your reasoning for where do we draw the line... Well I guess I draw the line at what a snake can do to itself by accident and what another animal can do to it while still alive.

So what do you with snakes that try to eat themselves? or bite themselves while feeding?