Reptile Importation Ethics

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Im confused. Shaun, you give an example of a snake regarded as vulnerable, thus protected by the Australian government as a reason why its good to take snakes from the wild. In my mind, this does not compute.

only SMALL number SPECIFIC breeders,were allowed to,keep and work with these snakes

this helped understand them and breed them

Oenpelli were once classed as PEST FAUNA,as ALL snakes in the Western Territory's were classed

they have now been granted a special proteced animal status

by allowing the few breeders to work with these snakes,more were produced,breeding was understood,their husbandry known

if these breeders had NOT been allowed to take and work with these snakes,then very little would have been known about them,also imo now there are Oenpelli,in CERTAIN private breeders hands,they will NEVER be extinct

i'm DEFINATLY NOT ADVOCATING just anyone be allowed to help themselves to wild snakes

i was merely pointing out,that taking from the wild is NOT all bad,there are good reasons for it being done

imo in the case of the Oenpelli,taking a founder breeding group from the wild,ensures these snakes will have a future

cheers shaun

[exwizard]

Such the tightrope to balance on. Who determines who's qualified and how? What's to prevent these keepers from liquidating at any given moment in time?

[StudentoReptile]

That's more or less what I meant by my earlier post, Shaun.

And you have a point, wizard...who decides who is qualified?

Just having a degree in herpetology doesn't mean everything. I know a few pH.Ds who can go on for hours about the natural history about certain species...but they are horrible at keeping the animals alive in captivity. And in contrast, many keepers never went to college, but can successfully propagate herptiles in captivity where the biologists and zoos have failed.

It takes an amalgamation of both worlds for it to work, and Shaun is right...only in a perfect world. It rarely happens today: the Ph.Ds and zoos are too proud to ask for help and the private sector (as a whole) is too greedy to look at the bigger picture.

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

That's more or less what I meant by my earlier post, Shaun.

And you have a point, wizard...who decides who is qualified?

Just having a degree in herpetology doesn't mean everything. I know a few pH.Ds who can go on for hours about the natural history about certain species...but they are horrible at keeping the animals alive in captivity. And in contrast, many keepers never went to college, but can successfully propagate herptiles in captivity where the biologists and zoos have failed.

It takes an amalgamation of both worlds for it to work, and Shaun is right...only in a perfect world. It rarely happens today: the Ph.Ds and zoos are too proud to ask for help and the private sector (as a whole) is too greedy to look at the bigger picture.

I agree with all of this, especially that last paragraph.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Such the tightrope to balance on. Who determines who's qualified and how? What's to prevent these keepers from liquidating at any given moment in time?

these keepers are Professor's,doctor's,etc NOT people who breed to sell,but breed to study,to further education and understanding of

the keepers i named have spent their WHOLE lives in this field

re who gets to keep them
it's the Australian Government,who decided in BOTH the cases i posted about

they in turn i assume,would have consulted with scientists and herptologists that specialize in such matters

cheers shaun

[exwizard]

Im glad it worked this time but that's no guarantee it will always work, especially when government is involved. I really see a slick potential of politics getting in the way. Excuse my uneasiness in these matters. I really distrust the government.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Im glad it worked this time but that's no guarantee it will always work, especially when government is involved. I really see a slick potential of politics getting in the way. Excuse my uneasiness in these matters. I really distrust the government.

^^^^^
there's NOTHING to excuse mate

i live in the UK and our Governments more TWISTED than even the USA Government

our Governments politicians are ALL private school educated millionares,who know f*** all of the problems of,the every day people of this country

the folk who have to make DAILY decisions like.....

should we eat,or should we heat our home.....

because they " CANNOT " afford to do BOTH...

so please don't get me started on politic's and Governments...they make me

they don't know how to treat human beings,so god help reptiles

cheers shaun

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

^^^^^
there's NOTHING to excuse mate

i live in the UK and our Governments more TWISTED than even the USA Government

our Governments politicians are ALL private school educated millionares,who know f*** all of the problems of,the every day people of this country

the folk who have to make DAILY decisions like.....

should we eat,or should we heat our home.....

because they " CANNOT " afford to do BOTH...

so please don't get me started on politic's and Governments...they make me

they don't know how to treat human beings,so god help reptiles

cheers shaun

Thank you.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Thank you.

imo it's only going to get worse mate

now that capitalism is crashing down all around us,thats what happens when buy now pay later,catches up with you (our governments)

the crap thing is the very people that caused it are ALL well off politicians,etc

who don't have the same worrys as the everyday man

cheers shaun

[exwizard]

Yeah but it goes back to my earlier question. Who decides who's qualified for these special breeding projects and who makes sure the process isn't corrupted?

[BarelyBreathing]

Thank you all for your imput. My husband read everything but would prefer to remain a lurker rather than participate in the discussion. He did ask me to touch on a few key points for opinions. Thoughts on:

1- Golden frogs. These frogs are thought to be 100% extinct in the wild and would be 100% extict period if it weren't for human intervention.

2- Crested geckos. Once thought to be extinct in the wild, they were rediscovered in '94, and a select few specimens were introduced into the pet trade. Now they are one of the most popular reptiles in the hobby, their wild breeding populations have been re-established, and they've gathered a lot of attention because of their popularity as pets.

3- Do you think that establishing a wider variety of reptiles available in the pet trade will establish a wider variety of herpers in the hobby, thus expand concervation efforts whether directly or indirectly? As in- the more people who get to come in contact with animals, the more people care about their wild plight?

4- As somebody touched on, even with popular captive bred pets, if we don't introduce new blood lines what could happen to that species in the hobby in future generations?

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Thank you all for your imput. My husband read everything but would prefer to remain a lurker rather than participate in the discussion. He did ask me to touch on a few key points for opinions. Thoughts on:

1- Golden frogs. These frogs are thought to be 100% extinct in the wild and would be 100% extict period if it weren't for human intervention.

2- Crested geckos. Once thought to be extinct in the wild, they were rediscovered in '94, and a select few specimens were introduced into the pet trade. Now they are one of the most popular reptiles in the hobby, their wild breeding populations have been re-established, and they've gathered a lot of attention because of their popularity as pets.

3- Do you think that establishing a wider variety of reptiles available in the pet trade will establish a wider variety of herpers in the hobby, thus expand concervation efforts whether directly or indirectly? As in- the more people who get to come in contact with animals, the more people care about their wild plight?

4- As somebody touched on, even with popular captive bred pets, if we don't introduce new blood lines what could happen to that species in the hobby in future generations?

point 1.....
relates to what i was saying about the 2 species of Australian python,if they had not been taken from the wild,they may not exsist in years to come,down to little numbers in the wild

point 2.....
applies as well to said pythons

point 3
i think introducing a wider variety of reptiles would bring more people into the hobby,also make others around them more aware of good old mother nature

point4.....
imo,eventually all the old bloodlines get tainted with mongeral genetics,also taking the carpet python in to account,ALL the carpets outside Australia are desendants of all exports prior to 1982,so could be doing with some NEW bloodlines,also the new bloodlines imo would have better documented lineage

so i agree with Mr BB's points completely

cheers shaun

[StudentoReptile]

Ditto for me^^^

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

point 1.....
point 3
i think introducing a wider variety of reptiles would bring more people into the hobby,also make others around them more aware of good old mother nature

Indeed. There will always be people who want something beyond ball pythons, cornsnakes, BCI, leopard & crested geckos, and bearded dragons. What a boring industry it would be with such few options.

And while there will always be greed, I am seeing a slowly growing trend of hobbyists getting more conscientious about environmental issues, etc. Not necessarily "I'll only buy CBB" but the awareness is spreading.

point4.....
imo,eventually all the old bloodlines get tainted with mongeral genetics,also taking the carpet python in to account,ALL the carpets outside Australia are desendants of all exports prior to 1982,so could be doing with some NEW bloodlines,also the new bloodlines imo would have better documented lineage[/quote]

Not to rehash the line-breeding/inbreeding discussion, but yeah, new blood is good from time to time.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Yeah but it goes back to my earlier question. Who decides who's qualified for these special breeding projects and who makes sure the process isn't corrupted?

^^^^^
at the end of the day,i don't doubt that politic's and money,could well corrupt decision makers

for example Albino Carpet pythons...

a few years ago 1 example was found in the wilds of Australia,now look how many Albino Carpets there are WORLD WIDE.so someone with enough cash managed to get one out of oz,the same can be said in reverse,there are now European morph's in oz,again imo down to the amount of money being made

we can only hope governments,listen to the people who have dedicated their lives to reptiles,and actually know what they are talking about

like the large universities,legitamte animal conservation groups,enviromental studies,etc,etc

imo you are basically asking who watches the government,pretty much no one

that said in this age of the internet,us mere mortals can go worldwide at a press of a button,so if enough common people get together,eventually someone with authority will have to listen

^^^^^
i hope the above makes sense to you mate

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Not to rehash the line-breeding/inbreeding discussion, but yeah, new blood is good from time to time.

i have a line breeding project up and running right now mate

i have a pair of F2 reduced pattern,high yellow,irian jaya's,that will be bred once sexually mature,they were imported from Holland,so are new bloodlines to the UK's irian population

i hope to refine the yellow and reduced pattern,to produce even better looking snakes,then they will be sold and outcrossed with other irian jaya bloodlines here in the UK

i will hold back the best pair and continue my line breeding

i have seen carpets bred right up to F5 and more with NO healtyh issues

imo again it's a question of which species your doing it with,as i have heard some line breeding projects with boa's,cause all sorts of birth defects,this type of line breeding i cannot condone

back on subject...

but i agree with you,that it would be nice to have new bloodlines released,from time to time,be it wild caught or captive bred from their country of origin

cheers shaun