Disease?

[Carlie]

1) Chuck every rodent in the freezer, bleach it, and order more from somewhere else.

- As much as I want to do this I cannot afford a new mouse order and the vet bills right now as I just had my son and things are tight as it is. I always buy my mice from the same breeder, they always come in frozen, and I contacted him asking if he had heard anything back about his last shipments.

2) Find a GOOD herp vet where you can bring the sick snake for exam, the dead snake for necropsy WITH histopathology of at least the GI tract and preferably all major organs, and fecal exams for all snakes.

- There is only one herp vet in the area. I was talking to the secretary but she couldn't give me information on the tests so I have to discuss the tests with the vet Thursday.

3) Ask the breeder you got them from if she has seen anything like this in her collection. She may be one step ahead of you (if she will tell you).

- She has had more reguges than the norm, her snakes have not had testing, and shes giving me a full refund. A friend of mine got one from her around the same time I did, his died last weekend.

4) Put the entire collection on lockdown. It does not have to be too late for your other snakes. All regurging or non-feeding snakes should be moved to a separate room. The rest of the collection/racks should be entirely emptied and cleaned with bleach. I would keep everyone on paper and use disposable hides and water bowls until you get this figured out. Get a box of latex gloves and designate a pair of gloves for every individual tub/cage. Deal with the sick snakes last and do not go back into the main snake room until you have showered and changed.

5) Identify "critical control points" such as the door knob to the snake room, the sink faucet handle, the temp gun, your shoes, etc and do everything you can to minimize cross contamination at these points.

- I think if majority have it already they likely all do?

6) Get an accurate gram scale and start weighing all snakes regularly. This will help you judge overall health as well as dehydration. I would also learn the "pinch test". Most snake species get much of their liquids from their food and regurging snakes can dehydrate quickly and may need to be soaked regularly. Keep in mind that this is stressful and should be kept short, luke warm, shallow, and closely supervised.

- I weigh my snakes every feed night. Most of them are packing on the weight, regurgers have stayed close to the same weight, ones that have dropped dramatically have been moved to smaller bins to keep a closer eye on them, and get a quick soak.

Majority of my collection is corns, the only other snakes I currently have is a trio of checkered garters, showing no symptoms.

Also there are no lumps, no other symptoms. They are all perfect. Here are some pics from last week ;

Refusing food


Refusing food



Regurging


Regurging


No Symptoms


No Symptoms

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by zwhitman

1st of all a little more info would be good. Are all of the snakes corns? Do any of the snakes have a midbody lump or any other symptoms?

If it were me, I would do the following...

1) Chuck every rodent in the freezer, bleach it, and order more from somewhere else.

2) Find a GOOD herp vet where you can bring the sick snake for exam, the dead snake for necropsy WITH histopathology of at least the GI tract and preferably all major organs, and fecal exams for all snakes.

3) Ask the breeder you got them from if she has seen anything like this in her collection. She may be one step ahead of you (if she will tell you).

4) Put the entire collection on lockdown. It does not have to be too late for your other snakes. All regurging or non-feeding snakes should be moved to a separate room. The rest of the collection/racks should be entirely emptied and cleaned with bleach. I would keep everyone on paper and use disposable hides and water bowls until you get this figured out. Get a box of latex gloves and designate a pair of gloves for every individual tub/cage. Deal with the sick snakes last and do not go back into the main snake room until you have showered and changed.

5) Identify "critical control points" such as the door knob to the snake room, the sink faucet handle, the temp gun, your shoes, etc and do everything you can to minimize cross contamination at these points.

6) Get an accurate gram scale and start weighing all snakes regularly. This will help you judge overall health as well as dehydration. I would also learn the "pinch test". Most snake species get much of their liquids from their food and regurging snakes can dehydrate quickly and may need to be soaked regularly. Keep in mind that this is stressful and should be kept short, luke warm, shallow, and closely supervised.

Your temps are marginal. Sick snakes need a wide temp gradient and a good basking spot to be able to boost their immune system. 84 probably isn't going to cut it.

In the future if you don't want this to happen again (and it will if you give it long enough) separate all incoming snakes in a separate room for at least 30 days and preferably longer(60-90). Run fecals ASAP. Sorry that you have to learn about this the hard way. Unfortunately this is the way most people start to quarantine. After they loose animals. Hopefully people will read this and take warning. Please keep us updated.

No offense but that's pretty steep advice for a first post. Especially considering the current info we have.

@Carlie

Glad to hear she is refunding you because it seriously sounds like it's a problem with her snakes. If you are worried about the feeder rodents you can get the vet to test them and see if there are any problems with them. No point in throwing away a while rodent order without testing a few. Where are you located?

[Carlie]

I am located in The Greater Sudbury Area, in Ontario, Canada.

I do think the problem originated in her snakes. I do admit I wasn't as careful as I should have been. I trusted her, I got snakes from her last year, did all the protocols, everything, they were perfect. I just moved, space was tight, I thought it was just going to be the same as last year, and I was wrong. So my snakes catching it is on me, and now I am paying drastically for it.

How much is testing the rodents, do you know? Sorry.

[Snakefood]

Sounds like you have it mostly in hand. The only things I would change are:

1) just because they've all been exposed, doesn't mean they all have it. each individuals immune system is different, please do get the sick ones away from the "healthy" ones and if another starts showing symptoms, transfer that one and bleach the whole "healthy" rack.

2) bump up those high end temps, it boosts thier immune systems and helps to digest food faster and therefore reduces the chances of regurges. I keep my corns hot end at 86/87.

3) once you offer food to the ones regurging, offer pinky mice or rats and slit the prey's skin, this also allows for faster digestion to prevent regurges.

[Carlie]

1) just because they've all been exposed, doesn't mean they all have it. each individuals immune system is different, please do get the sick ones away from the "healthy" ones and if another starts showing symptoms, transfer that one and bleach the whole "healthy" rack.

I currently don't have another system to put them in. The unhealthy ones wouldn't have a heat source if I moved them, Unless I downgrade their bins and put 2 or 3 on each heat pad. I know this is going to sound awful but depending on what they come back with the whole clan might be culled. I can't afford to do individual testing on each animal.
- I do have a question tho, I have talked to a friend of mine about this, he wants a pet snake, one that is not showing symptoms, and has no other animals. He knows everything, all the risks, is it wrong to give one to him?

2) bump up those high end temps, it boosts thier immune systems and helps to digest food faster and therefore reduces the chances of regurges. I keep my corns hot end at 86/87.

Done. Currently monitoring it to make sure it doesn't go too high.

3) once you offer food to the ones regurging, offer pinky mice or rats and slit the prey's skin, this also allows for faster digestion to prevent regurges.

When I offer food to ones that have regurged I offer a smaller food size, slit and sprinkled with nurtibac. Also wait 10 days before offering it.

[Snakefood]

1) if you've been completely honest with everything about the illness running through your collection and he is willing to take on both the risk and responsibility of a snake that could be coming to him sick, I see no reason not to give it to him.

2) cheap way to quarantine, heat tape or wire (on a dimmer/thermostat) and tubs. My quarantine rack is in my bathroom, holds up to 2 adult, 4 yearlings or 8 hatchlings and cost me $40.

3) SMALLER is not neccesarily enough, when your snake had multiple regurges, you want HAIRLESS

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

No offense but that's pretty steep advice for a first post. Especially considering the current info we have.

steep? yeah, but a quality first post. This thread wound up on the Reptile Report so I have a feeling we're going to have a few experienced keepers making their way over here to lend some advice. I've noticed it on other occasions as well. Although I don't know this person's credentials, the advice is spot on for what you want to do when you have a potential disease outbreak on your hands.

Originally Posted by Snakefood

if you've been completely honest with everything about the illness running through your collection and he is willing to take on both the risk and responsibility of a snake that could be coming to him sick, I see no reason not to give it to him.

I would agree, as long as he's aware of it, its not a bad option for a place to QT an animal. I QT'd a snake at a buddy's place before, worked great, if a little inconvenient. Even if you intend to give it to him permanently it'll hopefully keep the animal alive.

[KORBIN5895]

I have no idea what athe testing would cost on a mouse but probably not much.

If you have to kill off your whole collection then you have to. That's not cruel or wrong. Even if you had the money to test each snake it would probably be better to kill off your collection, wait one year and start fresh.

If your friend knows everything that is happening right now and he wants to take the chance, well more power to him. Good luck. It's a really tough spot you're in.

Oh, and congratulations on owning up to your quarantine mistake.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by millertime89

steep? yeah, but a quality first post. This thread wound up on the Reptile Report so I have a feeling we're going to have a few experienced keepers making their way over here to lend some advice. I've noticed it on other occasions as well. Although I don't know this person's credentials, the advice is spot on for what you want to do when you have a potential disease outbreak on your hands.

Quality or not this gent could've copy and pasted it. I honestly believe he knows what he is talking about but I am curious of his credentials too. He has apparently joined just to provide this info as he has no other posts atm.

[Carlie]

Thank you for all your help. I will keep you all updated on this. I will be hoping for the best, but even the best looks sort of grim at this point.

1) if you've been completely honest with everything about the illness running through your collection and he is willing to take on both the risk and responsibility of a snake that could be coming to him sick, I see no reason not to give it to him.

Thank you. I Will be placing a couple of them shortly with a friend to see how they do, and will be following up with them with a note (explaining the possibilities they could be sick, and could get others sick), and a photocopy of every single vet report. And will make it as clear as possible. My friend is only keeping the one but I want to place them there for a few weeks to see how they do. I have 2 other friends out of town that would be willing to take one each. Either way, sadly none of them will be staying with me. Bins will either be tossed or scrubbed down with ammonia several times over, and will not obtain any new snakes for a few months after these guys have cleared out.

2) cheap way to quarantine, heat tape or wire (on a dimmer/thermostat) and tubs. My quarantine rack is in my bathroom, holds up to 2 adult, 4 yearlings or 8 hatchlings and cost me $40.

Since he isn't taking all of the healthy ones I am moving them into my room, with a cheap and temporary dimmer switch heating system. My fiancee broke his foot 2 weeks ago so he won't be much help at this point but this is simple and quick enough for it to get done.

3) SMALLER is not neccesarily enough, when your snake had multiple regurges, you want HAIRLESS

Feeding night is tonight, they will all be receiving pinks/peach fuzzies. Thank you I never knew this, and always thought just a smaller size would be beneficial.

Owning up to my mistake is necessary. I cannot possibly blame the breeder who I got the snakes from, even though it originated from her snakes, she did not force the snakes into my rack. Also she is a charm to work with, and am very sad that this happened as it will prevent me from ordering from her again.

For those interested here is my Iherp, it features my tiny collection, but they are wonderful;

Ones regurging;
Bree, Butters, Equis, Freya, Sweets.

Ones refusing;
Candy, Noran, Talc (But Talc has always eaten at every second feeding, don't think he is actually sick but have to note it).

No symptoms;
Apollo, Areo, Bow, Damon, Dazzle, Fiesta, Mirage, Burr and Sissy. (Bow, Fiesta, and one other are being moved to my friends house to see how they will be)

iHerp : Online Reptile Software, Husbandry, Community, Tracking, Breeding, Snakes, and More!

And I am sorry if this thread has started anything, it was not my intention.

[Snakefood]

Naw, this thread didn't start anything.

And yes, the hair makes them harder to digest, so my regurges get pinky "something", mouse, rat and I would give my huge guy a pinky rabbit for a few feedings were he to regurge (but he's a healthy big boy)

[KORBIN5895]

Lol. You haven't started anything. Let us know when you get your results.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

And yes, the hair makes them harder to digest, so my regurges get pinky "something", mouse, rat and I would give my huge guy a pinky rabbit for a few feedings were he to regurge (but he's a healthy big boy)

You can order hairless mice from rodentpro, I just saw them on their site. All sizes.

Don't worry Carlie, you didn't start anything, this is just how forums are.

[Snakefood]

There are hairless rats too, ugly buggers!!

[zwhitman]

Thats the problem with forums. You never know who you are talking too. I don't consider a post count to make anyone an expert. And I always use my real name on all forums I post in. Zach Whitman by the way nice to meet everyone here.

I did join this forum just to reply to this post after I saw it on the reptile report. For what it is worth I am a senior vet student and I have had the unfortunate experience of dealing with disease outbreaks in reptile collections before (thankfully not my own!). Controlling something like this is a nightmare and it is expensive, but you can probably still salvage your collection. If you are not going to go all out you will probably loose more animals. As another post mentioned, I would not cull anything just yet. If nothing else just wait and see what happens. Snakes are tough and I would give them a chance.

I know the mice are expensive but seriously, all of this started with new snakes AND new mice. This could easily be salmonella or E coli or something like that from the mice and you just keep feeding it to them. I would be very hesitant to let snakes leave the collection at this point. While your friends house sounds like an OK situation, you loose control of what happens to that animal.

Since money is tight I would recommend spending whatever you have to to get good histopathology on the dead one. Get the gloves, a gallon of bleach, a roll of 3 inch flexwatt or a rubber coated heat cable, and a dimmer. All cheap. Then cross your fingers and hope for the best.

cheers