Breeding vs Morals and Ethics - Page 2

Brently · 04-03-12, 06:54 AM

I would say in a perfect world where the pet trade and the natural world would never comingle that both intergrades and hybridization is okay. However back here in reality where we all live I would say that intergrades should be practiced carefully. And hybridization should be very strictly limited to different species of the same locale and even then I would say it is a slippery slope.

Xanafein · 04-03-12, 06:56 AM

Well, Intergrades and hybrids are both something I have an Extreme interest in

I don't consider the Odds of things happening in the wild a Factor In a closed environment where everything is Regulated, Feeding, Humidity, a hypersterile enironment ect. ect., that said what I do Consider is Quality of life.

Intergrades can always lead a healthy happy life in their environments, and so can most hybrids, so my thoughts on this matter are as follows

If the animal is healthy and happy, I don't care how its existence came to be

KORBIN5895 · 04-03-12, 07:03 AM

Oh does anyone else feel the heat??? If not it's coming.

As far as intergrades go I feel as long as there basic genetics are similar ( like bci and bcc) I have no issues with it. I realize this leads us to the debate of if snake "A" is really a pure locality or not.

As far as hybridization goes that also goes against my moral code. You wouldn't breed a cougar to a tiger or a rat to a degu. So why a burm to a retic or a bcc to an atb? They are very different in many physical aspects so why force those changes upon them? What if you produced something the size of a bcc but it had the habits and tendencies of an atb? That would just be whack for the port buggar.

shaunyboy · 04-03-12, 07:10 AM

being honest i have no issues with either,as long as its NOT producing snakes with health issues

intergrades i would not have included as they can and do happen in the wild

re morphs
again as long as their are not a lot of health issues,then i have no problem with it

cheers shaun

exwizard · 04-03-12, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

being honest i have no issues with either,as long as its NOT producing snakes with health issues

intergrades i would not have included as they can and do happen in the wild

re morphs
again as long as their are not a lot of health issues,then i have no problem with it

cheers shaun

Ive done some thinking about this for a while. I am in agreement with Shaun on this one. I have no problems with hybrids as long as there are no resulting health issues and the breeder is forthright and upfront in explaining to the prospective buyer that it is a hybrid.

UwabamiReptiles · 04-04-12, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exwizard

Ive done some thinking about this for a while. I am in agreement with Shaun on this one. I have no problems with hybrids as long as there are no resulting health issues and the breeder is forthright and upfront in explaining to the prospective buyer that it is a hybrid.

I agree with shaun and wiz. As long as no health issues and the breeder is straigtht forward about what the animal is, then I don't have a problem with hybrids.

CDN_Blood · 04-03-12, 07:55 AM

Hold your thoughts, folks...our trusty Mod is going to add the poll for me 'cause a BDU error cause me to not included it <shakes fist at self>. While the logic behind your posts is always great to have, don't forget to go back and vote if you think the poll options are applicable. Thanks everyone, and a special thanks to Moderiffic Infernalis for saving the day yet again

So far, I have to say the quality of response posts is quite high. I'm impressed that folks are concerned about these things and that they've clearly given it some careful consideration. Keep up the good work! I'm so curious to see the numbers, lol...

Lankyrob · 04-03-12, 09:59 AM

I cant vote as neither option matches my thoughts

CDN_Blood · 04-03-12, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

I cant vote as neither option matches my thoughts

Would you have liked to see another option? If so, what would it be?

Lankyrob · 04-03-12, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDN_Blood

Would you have liked to see another option? If so, what would it be?

As i see hybrids and intergrades in totally different lights one option in a vote wouldnt work for both situations. I think i said it all in my post tho

CDN_Blood · 04-03-12, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

As i see hybrids and intergrades in totally different lights one option in a vote wouldnt work for both situations. I think i said it all in my post tho

Trust me, I deliberated long and hard about what argument and options to present. In the end I actually opted to include both morals and ethics even though it's not up for debate amongst the guiding bodies. It wasn't an easy choice, which is the whole purpose of the exercise...it makes a body think

JustBitten · 04-03-12, 10:24 AM

This is a tough one and my answer is different depending on the circumstances. If you are dealing with an animal that is rare both in the wild and captivity, they should never be messed with other than to do what we can to bring their (as pure as possible without too much in-breeding) numbers up. I think we have an obligation to protect the original animal.

I don't know how this would function, but I think we also need to protect localities when and where we can. I understand they are not truly different animals, but they do seem to carry a collection of unique attributes and those are worth preserving. How and to what degree is a personal question. I do like it when a breeder shows dedication to an original form, but I'm no zealot.

Where the animal is very common, there is more latitude IMO. Intergrades of certain species make more sense to me, as some are very similar to begin with, or would likely happen in the wild anyway. Generally, if they are common in captivity and as long as they are identified as intergrades, I don't see a problem.

Hybrids can be beautiful, but what is the end game plan for making them, assuming they are sterile? Just 'cause? Again comes back to their rarity and the genetic cost associated to "wasting" that opportunity to make more of something at risk.

My biggest objection is the perpetuation of health problems. This is a personal opinion and I am absolutely not taking a shot at others who feel differently, but for example, I don't think spider Royals should be bred until we know more about their neuro issues. I have a long history breeding rabbits for show (as a kid), being around the dog breeding world, and breeding horses as a teen. A neurological issue like that would end a line in most cases. That is not to say that there are no problems in those worlds, cough cough German Shepherds, cough. Whoever decided to breed dogs with tendons so short they can't stand properly should be shot at sunrise.

However, I don't understand why the snake world has determinedly continued to breed an animal with a known problem. I do understand that we have not been able to identify that they are in pain and they do function to varying degrees, but when I see a bad example of the wobble, it makes me nauseous and I have to ask myself why we're doing this to them. Just because we love their combos? I would personally need a better reason than that to breed a spider even though I love how they look.

Acting responsibly, ethically, and morally can be an awkward, uncomfortable and difficult thing, no doubt.

**lady_bug87** · 04-03-12, 10:32 AM

I think this is a really good question and may give a lot of people food for thought. I have voted as well. I am very interested in the results

Very well written Todd

MoreliAddict · 04-03-12, 10:38 AM

Most people keep snakes for amusement imo, a snake living in an enclosure is not natural in the first place. Given the reason we keep them in the first place I think there's nothing wrong with hybrids as long as whatever snakes that are being produced are healthy and cared for.

It's an ethical issue, however, because many keepers don't want others to "muddy up" the gene pool.

KORBIN5895 · 04-03-12, 10:54 AM

Hehe. I know what everyone voted!