Please look!!!!!! Need help!!!! - Page 2

citysnakes · 05-07-09, 06:11 PM

Kmef07, if your buddies put on 15 pounds in a month, the weight was definitely not muscle and was more likely a whole lot of water weight and fat. protein and carb loading with shakes and weight gainers is not necessarily healthy and if you want to put on quality weight then quality calories is where it will come from. hamburgers can be healthy(but usually aren't) and have a ton of nutritional value and in Sandy's example hamburgers could be replaced with any other highly caloric food. higher calories and a faster rate of growth do not necessarily mean better or healthier. if we do not know the nutritional requirement then nothing can be said to be better or more nutritious especially based only on "common sense" reasoning. if the animal is eating and is healthy then what, how and when you are feeding it is fine. a feeding schedule based on type prey is a little backward as opposed to a feeding schedule based on the animal that you are feeding.

but why take my word for it? i think i just posted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by citysnakes.com

dont believe everything you hear...

i would also like to add, "or read", at the end of that quote.

Kmef07 · 05-07-09, 06:37 PM

My point was that faster growing is not bad either. and it is totally possible to put on that much good muscle in a month or so. yes a lot will be water weight but a lot is muscle too. and i was saying my feeding schedule if i was using a mouse would be more frequent because my snake when i first got it and all i had was a mouse ate it and then a couple days later was out and about the tank wanting more food. next i fed a rat of the same size and it was content with not eating for a couple days longer. probably just a growth spurt but still when my snake gets older it will get food less probably no matter what it eats.

but sandy is 100% right i dont think we will ever know 100% what is right and what is wrong on this matter without some research done on it. it's like the global warming debate no one really knows what the hell is going on with it lol.

Kmef07 · 05-07-09, 06:38 PM

haha and sorry to argue julian and sandy but i just love to debate topics. it is harder over the internet but in real life im really good at it lol.

citysnakes · 05-07-09, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmef07

and it is totally possible to put on that much good muscle in a month or so. yes a lot will be water weight but a lot is muscle too.

hehe...buddy, not even professional body builders that live at the gym, eat to the exact calorie and pump themselves with drugs can put on 15 pounds of muscle in a month.

Chu'Wuti · 05-08-09, 04:22 PM

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it is widely accepted, by the people around here that deal with reptiles, that if you were to feed a snake a rat that is the same size a mouse then the snake would get more calories from the rat than the mouse of the same size. The way it has been explained to me is that rat meat is like a protien bar and mouse meat is like a candy bar. simular in size but the rat holds a lot more calories and nutrients in the same package.

Incorrect. Comparing similar-sized animals, the protein content is similar, the crude fat is actually higher in the rat, and the energy content overall is very similar in a mouse and a rat of the same size. The fat, IMHO, would be the "candy bar" part of the meal, so that nice fatty rat would be the candy bar. As I explained previously, it is UNknown whether the contents of the trace minerals, which differ by species, are better in the rats or the mice, because the studies have not been done on the snakes.

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is the research scientific, no, but does it make sense, yes.

No. Not if you actually read the scientific research.

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He said that the snakes that he fed rats to grew faster and appeared healthier than the ones that he fed mice to.

As I said before, growing faster is not necessarily healthy. How did he assess the differences in health--how did the rat-fed snakes look "healthier" to him? I need some scientific research that provides evidence of better health, such as better circulatory system, less body fat, increased longevity, etc.

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rat milk does have higher levels of nutrients in it than mouse milk.

That's b***sh*t. I have no idea where you got that information, but part of my research is on milk, and it is simply not true.

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my breeder friend sent to me with all the proof needed about that

"Proof"? I go by scientific research for my evidence (proof). Show me the scientific research to support your claim. I'll be glad to be educated.

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"thats my story and im stickin to it"

Yep, we've met several others like you. I'm with Julian--we've "been here, done this." This is my last post on this topic, too.

For those who are actually interested in learning more about this, here is a link (yet again) to the only scientific research I have been able to find about the prey animals:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf

You have no idea how much I would like to find some good research about the snakes' actual dietary needs for optimum growth, development, and health.

siz · 05-09-09, 06:49 AM

Thanks for the links Sandy, I really find this topic very engaging - it's so unfortunate we don't yet have REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to support all these 'theorys'.

Will0W783 · 05-09-09, 08:15 AM

Hopefullly somebody someday soon will do the research and get the info out there.

carciady · 05-09-09, 02:50 PM

why dont you just look at what the same size snake would eat in the wild lol.

carciady · 05-09-09, 02:51 PM

nice snake by the way

gonesnakee · 05-09-09, 05:11 PM

Off/On topic but, you know what I hate?
Is these people that have these BS thread titles that waste my time.
I could care less about looking at some stupid BP pics etc. when the only reason I bothered to even look at this crap was to see if I could help someone who might actualy need it. As i type this crap someone else that realy requires my time & effort will not be receiving it now THX Mark

citysnakes · 05-09-09, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siz

Thanks for the links Sandy, I really find this topic very engaging - it's so unfortunate we don't yet have REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to support all these 'theorys'.

well research has been done on reptile nutrition so its only a matter of trying to dig up whats out there. in this case we do not know the nutritional requirements for optimal health in ball pythons.

since ball pythons are ectothermic, their metabolic rates will be determined by the temperature of their environment and their behaviour within the environment. also we would need to consider the animals age and weight and possibly sex, as in humans for example, metabolic rates vary between sexes.

we would also need to know the animals resting metabolic rate at different temperatures or possibly determine a standard resting metabolic rate at a certain temperature so that we can calculate required energy for a specific animal while at rest.

i guess we then add average behavioural energy consumption at an average temperature range(because the animals metabolic rate will increase or decrease depending on higher or lower temperatures), to our standard resting metabolic rate and we should end up with a total daily(or weekly) caloric expenditure.

based on the energy output of the specific animal we can then determine what size, amount and type of prey would meet these caloric needs but i guess we still would need to determine the macros for this animal. ball pythons are true carnivores so i would assume that the majority of their calories would come from proteins and fats with minimal amounts of carbohydrates.

even after we figure out all these factors(and most likely even more that i have missed) any prey item, be it mouse or rat, that meets the nutritional requirements will do.

so this whole rant was pointless and most likely even wrong as little to no research has been done by me on this issue. i was merely thinking about the possibility and i guess i got carried away while typing.

anyways,

Quote:

Originally Posted by citysnakes.com

dont believe everything you hear...

or read...

citysnakes · 05-09-09, 10:34 PM

oh, and im going to have to agree with mark about this thread's title.

gonesnakee · 05-09-09, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citysnakes.com

oh, and im going to have to agree with mark about this thread's title.

I was pretty gouchy earlier

LOL but it still shouldn't be abused, but used if one actually really needs help ASAP.
You don't scream FIRE or RAPE etc. just to get Attn right?

Mark

Chu'Wuti · 05-10-09, 07:49 AM

Quote:

why dont you just look at what the same size snake would eat in the wild lol.

Partly because in some cases that info hasn't been published, and in many cases we simply cannot replicate that diet because we don't have those prey items available.

And I also agree with Mark about this thread's title. In fact, after coming to see if I could help with whatever the problem was, I almost left without posting at all. If I hadn't read the post with incorrect nutrition information, I would have never posted here.

If you want us to look at your pics, that's fine--I love looking at pics.

Quote:

it still shouldn't be abused, but used if one actually really needs help ASAP.

gonesnakee · 05-10-09, 12:29 PM

As for prey in the wild snakes will eat meals that are way too big or far too small all the time. They do not pick & choose prey but are pretty much complete opportunists & take what they can get. They do not eat the prefect size meal every 5-7 days in the wild. Quite often they get no meals for weeks or even months & sometimes they get a huge meal they can barely take & keep down & may not require another for upwards of a year. Comparing anything we do meal wise in captivity to waht they will take in the wild is like Apples & Oranges kinda deal. There are no finicky feeders in the wild either, well not for long anyway

Mark