Ball Breeding Question-can't find an answer

[mykee]

"I am doing what I think is right and just need input on the things that I think that I need to do better. I am sorry if 99% of people disagree with me. In my mind I am caring for the snakes the best I can. "

Do you think there is a REASON that 99% of ball owners think it's wrong?!
Originally I thought it was ignorance, now I'm pretty sure it's stupidity.

[angie_85]

I have seen those pictures before, and also realised that one was a python, and the other a boa. There was no mention of how they were kept. If they were fed regularly, if they had just been introduced to each other, that is my opinion. I am not worried one bit that they will eat each other as long as I am feeding them as often as they need it, and have all of their other housing requirements met. I also have heard that they will "fight" for the best hides, heat, and all that. Everything in there for them is big enough to fit all 3. People say that they are not commonly found together in the wild, but there is so much to be said about that. In the wild lions eat hyenas, but we keep dogs and cats as pets together in the same home. Your house dog could eat your cat if it wanted to...but why do people not worry about that? Because the animals are "tamed". When you go to open your snakes cage and it comes right over to you, waiting to be picked up...is that not tame? More arguments are about if one has the scent of food on it, another might eat it. If they are full and fed properly, I do not see this happening. I do know people that are experienced breeders of snakes and other reptiles and they house more than one snake together, depending on the species. More arguments are that they DO NOT like the company of each other. These 3 adore each other. They are always together. If I have one in my hand and the other two are somewhere else, the one I have will go searching for the others. In my opinion, they do like each other and there is no proof out there to say otherwise. They can not communicate and say whether they like each other or not, but their actions suggest to me that they do. As for breeding them, I think that it would be a huge challenge, I know that they are not ready, I just was wondering if they would breed in there if they are all kept together. Yes I would love to try and have some baby snakes someday, but not right now. If they were to mate right now I would have a difficult situation on my hands. I am happy to hear that they likely will not breed if they are kept together. On a different note, I weighed them today, just to see how big they were and was largely dissapointed.I was told that the larger female was over 3 years old, and from what I have read should be of breeding weight at that age, not that I want to right now, I was just checking out of curiosity. I am assuming that she is either a year less than what I was told, or very small. Now I figure this will result in another reason why they should not be housed together and if for some reason that could be a factor, I will have them seperated as soon as possible. If someone could tell me some normal weights at ages 1, 2, and 3 years of age that would really help. I do have a few pictures of them...just not sure how to do the whole photobucket thing... Thank you all for helping, sorry if I was ever rude, and I hope nobody hates me just yet

[mykee]

One year old female "average" weights: 300g-1000g
Two years: 700g-2500g
three years: 800g-3500g

"and I hope nobody hates me just yet "

Hate you, no. Feel sorry for you.

And the sky is green because I say so, there's no convincing me because I'm right and that's that!
I personally can't be bothered trying to explain ad nauseum or to convince anyone how to keep proper husbandry. I've been around this hobby for enough years now to know who is worth it and who isn't.
My suggestion to everyone here is to save it for someone who cares about the well-being of thier animals.

[citysnakes]

angie, your snakes being always together is most likely a sign of competition for the best area inside the enclosure. you may not ever see them fight but know that they are constantly competing to survive amongst each other. i dont think your snakes adore each other but i do think that when they are seperated they will do much better alone. you might see better feeding responses and faster weight gain. by seperately housing your snakes you will have animals that are less stressed and maybe even more handleable, they will feed better, grow better and eventually breed(if that is your plan). im glad you are planning on seperating them.

i cant tell you what normal a weight would be for ball pythons of those ages because they all grow at different rates. i think a normal weight of a ball python at any age is one of an individually housed, healthy animal that is consistently feeding on, lets say, a reasonable feeding schedule.

[Chu'Wuti]

One year old female "average" weights: 300g-1000g
Two years: 700g-2500g
three years: 800g-3500g

i cant tell you what normal a weight would be for ball pythons of those ages because they all grow at different rates.

Looks to me like you guys are essentially in agreement--those weight ranges are quite broad.

Angie, I know you're feeling pretty attacked and defensive right now. The guys want what's best for the snakes, period. They have a LOT of experience--way more than I do, and I've kept various snakes for well over two decades. Mykee, Aaron, & Julian really know BPs, and if they tell me that I shouldn't be doing something or should be doing something, I give them the respect they deserve by listening because I want my BP to do well.

One thing I will add is that snakes & other reptiles do not have emotional feelings for each other or us the way mammals do. We can wish, but it won't happen.

[angie_85]

From what I was told, the older female is supposed to be at least 3-3.5 years old, I have their weights in their room but my boyfriend is sleeping right now and I dare not wake him as he is working the midnight shift. From what I remember the older female was around 700g, and the two smaller (supposedly 2-2.5 years old are between 450 and 550g. If their ages are accurate, they are quite underweight. I will try and get a hold of the man I bought them from, but doubt I will have any luck. The smaller ones look about the same size as the ones at my local pet store, which are 08 ball pythons. Now I am beginning to worry about them, if the ages were accurate. See it's worth still helping someone even if you think they are wrong mykee, You all may just change my mind about housing them together. Ok so they do eat very well, as far as I know. I read that as a general rule to feed them nothing bigger than twice the length of their heads, which I have done. Apparently before they were eating medium size rats every 3 weeks. I thought that wasn't right so I have been feeding them the biggest mice I can find every week to two weeks. So which is best to feed them? Larger rats that seem way to big, but every 3 weeks? Or smaller prey every week or 2?

[herpocrite27]

My BP is 40 inches long, I feed her medium size rats every week, sometimes two during the summer. During the winter she wont eat rats, so I feed her 2 large mice a week. You would be amazed how large a rat they can swallow. If the prey is to large, they will throw it up. As far as I have read, the rats are better, because they have bigger bones, meaning more calcium. They also are more meat and goodies instead of fluff like a mouse. If it wil eat a small rat a week or two mice a week, I believe it would perfect. I hope this helps. Good luck

[Smilts]

They sound small for their ages(but that doesnt mean anything bad all in of it self) my male 4 yr old is 1300 grams. I feed all of mine 1 med rat every two weeks, the smallest is just over 700 grams. The body diameter is a better measure of what size to feed it, I think at least on smaller snakes it is. I have far more exp with corns. Stress can affect a snakes weight and growth just like stress can severly affect humans or any animal.

[mykee]

For comparison, the females that I held back from this years breedings (born between July 2008 and October 2008), which are also housed properly) range in weight from about 450g-725g. You do the math.

[Kmef07]

ya use what coy suggested the same size or slightly bigger than the biggest part of the snake. also i would feed rats becuase they will let the snake grow faster and from what i was told by my breeder much more nutritious. when i had my ball she ate 1 med rat pup every 7 days or so. but i was conditioning her to breed so i was trying to get the weight up. if they truely are 3yrs old they don't need to eat as much as mine did because mine was still not even a year and she was growing quick but if you are trying to get weight on then just feed rats and increase the feeding schedule. but if you can see the skin between the scales when the snake is stretched out (not coiled) then it is fat. other people may have other opinions but this has worked for me.

[angie_85]

Ok I just checked around a bit and found that they should be fed nothing bigger than the thickest part of it's body. Good to know, as they can eat much larger than a mouse, but if you go by the rule that they shouldn't eat anything bigger than twice the size if their heads, a mouse would be all they can handle right now. I can getthe big girl to eat that darn nibbly male rat that I hate...lol. I have their weights: female 1-772g, female2-548g, and the male is 466g. I am hoping that they were about a year off on the ages, which would mean that they are all at a decent weight. Another question: Why is it that for breeding purposes you would "cool" them down around October (some sites say as late as January)? Why can you not do this at any time of year? I mean if your house stays atthe same temperature all year round, the snakes would have no idea what season it is right? May be a stupid question but I might as well ask right.

[Chu'Wuti]

Angie, another "rule of thumb" Julian once suggested to me is to feed a prey item that is about 10% of the weight of the snake. It seems your BPs could easily be eating rats or at least rat pups, and if you want to have them eating rats after they get bigger, you might want to stick with rats now, because it can be a real challenge to switch them off mice--I know, because mine has (so far) refused to switch.

Good luck!

[angie_85]

That is another thing I will consider next time I go get food for them, if the rats don't start breeding soon. They were on rats before I got them, I just couldn't get any the right size at the pet store so I got mice instead. the larger female and the male don't mind either way. They will take live or dead mice or rats, they just like food...lol. The smaller female is pretty picky, will sometimes take dead food, but usually prefers to eat live. Now I'll have to go start weighing all the rats and mice we have...fun!

[Aaron_S]

I think it was Mykee who gave the 10% rule but I could be wrong.

Aside from the feeding suggestions you have and the fact Julian has covered the competition part of your husbandry. I would like to mention that your snakes tolerate your handling. When you open the cage they don't come to you to be handled, they come out to explore the new area for possible food, they couldn't care less about you. What you are doing is putting human emotions upon your snakes and that's just not how snakes work. They don't care for one another, they wouldn't become sick like a dog or cat would for losing their brother/sister. They'd prefer it. I just don't see how you take a solitary animal and it now LIKES others of it's kind. We just can't compare mammals to reptiles.

Also you can't compare keeping ball pythons together as someone who keeps other reptiles together. They aren't the same. Some lizards can co-habitat but we're talking ball pythons.

Lastly, if you continue to keep them together then I recommend taking out the large hides and placing smaller hides. This way the snakes can be alone when they wish and still get the necessary heat/cooling they need. Ball pythons LIKE to feel very confined. They do not prefer space.

[angie_85]

Thanks for the input. I am not trying to argue at all, I just think that we have no idea if snakes like or dislike their keepers or other snakes, or if they enjoy handling or company, mine seem like they do but yes I do realise that it is very possible thay they do not, we may never know. All I was trying to say was that the person that keeps snakes housed together does know a lot about snakes, and other reptiles, not that they were at all the same. Just trying to mention that he knows more about snakes than I do, breeds them, and houses some together. I do appreciate everyone's input though.