Peta's Thoughts On Reptiles

[Ixidor]

Yes, but PETA, Poo Eaters of The Americas, should be trying to educate people who are considering purchasing reptiles. They shouldn't be saying don't buy an animal because you will kill the creature. That's rediculous. Malcolm X once said, "Education is our key to the future". If herpetology is to have a future as a hobby, people have to be educated.

btw Ch3m1cal_x, PETA wouldn't support the grass modifications either, to them, grass has feelings too =D

[Ch3m1cal_x]

i dont have a problem with the facts i have a problem with the part that sais that would u like a freezer of dead animals. also i dont agree with another few things, for instance if most of these animals wouldnt have been kept in captivity many people would never know what they look like. As well as i dont see how people can say the animals need more space and fredom, most animals are territorial and wont step a paw, claw or w.e outside of their territory. Next thing i have to say is that for instance if one of these reptile types got really sick in the nature, like i mean a whole species, and they ended up extict in nature, because of breeders and people that have them in captivity species can be saved sometimes and the population regenerated. Yet again thats only my opinion. I just dont like people that think animals shouldnt be kept in captivity or that they should be feeding on herbs only and veggies because eating other animals is wrong... Thanks for reading my opinion.

[rrrrr]

Okay LionShare. A quick pass to point out some of the crap...

Facts on Reptiles

The lot of a reptile captured or bred for the pet-store trade is grim. The trip from the breeder or dealer is typically cramped and unsanitary, and many reptiles do not survive it. Those who do will probably have health problems that don’t show up until months later.

Crap. I have bought from breeders and I know many breeders. It is not typical for them to be kept in unsanitary conditions. Serious health problems are the exception rather than the rule with captive-bred animals.

Unfortunately, reptiles are perceived as requiring minimal care rather than specialized care,

Crap. Care varies from species to species. Many require minimal AND specialized care. Take a corn snake for example. Care IS minimal. Mine takes maybe 1/10th the care my cat does, and let's not even talk about dogs.

Snakes
Depending on the variety, snakes can live for decades and grow to lengths in excess of 5 feet. They require at least a 30-gallon tank, frequent checkups, and care by a veterinarian who specializes in reptiles.

Crap. Many species dont require 30 gallon tanks. Hognose snakes for example dont require 30 gallons. They dont require checkups any more frequently than any other animal.

Fresh water and a spotless environment must be provided at all times.

Fresh water...yes. spotless at all times? That's hyperbole.

Most are carnivorous. They are susceptible to a variety of parasites as well as blister disease, respiratory and digestive disorders, and mouth rot.

So? Cats are carnivorous and are susceptible to cancer, feline diabetes, urinary tract blockages and ingrown dew-claws. This "fact" is completely irrelevant and is only stated to scare people.

Strictly controlled daytime and nighttime temperatures and the careful application of pesticides are required in order to guard against mite infestations.

crap. Mite-free snakes stay mite-free unless you introduce mites to them. Mites dont live in temperate zones like where I live. Temp schedules dont cause mite infestations. They have nothing to do with them actually.

Iguanas
...The enclosure for a full-grown iguana should be at least 18 feet long,

Crap. Actually, most of their iggie info is accurate, but 18 feet?

Geckos...
and require a very particular environment without the slightest variance in temperature.

Total crap. Many geckos come from areas with a significant natural variation in temperature.

They feed on insects and baby mice.

crap...some do, and some dont. Try feeding baby mice to a scorpion gecko. Some geckos eat a fair bit of nectar and fruit as well.

Turtles....
Most states have laws either banning or restricting the sale of turtles, so it is likely that any you see at a pet store have suffered illegal capture or were raised in less-than-humane conditions.

Since some states ban them, they are more likely to be raised in less-than-humane conditions? This is non-sequitar and entirely rhetorical. How does a ban in one state make a breeder in another state (or country) treat their animals inhumanely?

Caution
There is a health risk associated with owning any reptile. Seventy thousand people in the U.S. contract salmonellosis from direct or indirect contact with reptiles and amphibians every year. Children, pregnant women, and people with compromised immune systems are particularly at risk of serious illness or death. If you or anyone close to you is in one of these categories, rethink bringing a reptile into your home—even healthy-looking animals may be carrying the disease. Many reptiles are brought into the country with little or no inspection or quarantine.

Not crap but alarmist rhetoric. Better rethink buying eggs. Oh and chicken too. Oh, and 36% of healthy dogs and 18% of healthy cats carry salmonella as well. (http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/pbs/zoono...almonella.html) Salmonella is in the pop of a LOT of animals. Proper hygiene is the correct way to deal with it.

Adoption
Welcoming a reptile into your home means a commitment of time, space, and money. You’ll need to provide the right temperature and humidity and specific light/dark cycles that may not coincide with your own or be convenient to you.

Absolutely...

Backup power is necessary to keep a constant temperature in the event of a power failure.

crap. Peta is telling me that in order to keep a common garter snake (which can be found pretty much in my backyard), I need a backup generator? wtf?

[JimmyDavid]

well, more important than their info and factoids being correct or not is the fact that they are just too radical. And you cannot deal with radical people, its like trying to deal with a terrorist, they are blind to the rest of opinions.
As you said, most of us here keep our herps in prime condition so why should we be all in the same bag?

[JimmyDavid]

crap. Peta is telling me that in order to keep a common garter snake (which can be found pretty much in my backyard), I need a backup generator? wtf?[/QUOTE]

What? You did not know that? Of course you need a backup generator, man. In fact, every proud herper kit should include A certificate of your 20 lesson course on snake mouth to mouth ressuscitation (lol) and a nuclear reactor that should grant you electric power for at least 4000 years, just in case we should unexpectadly plunge into another ice age without warning.

[impy]

lol... very true hope i don't start to glow in the dark

[Ch3m1cal_x]

Originally Posted by JimmyDavid

What? You did not know that? Of course you need a backup generator, man. In fact, every proud herper kit should include A certificate of your 20 lesson course on snake mouth to mouth ressuscitation (lol) and a nuclear reactor that should grant you electric power for at least 4000 years, just in case we should unexpectadly plunge into another ice age without warning.

AHAHA Too funny All people from ssnakess.com should write a petition to peta and see what happens. They have made some false claims and are being offensive towards people that keep reptiles! If you have a problem with them you should voice it loud and clear because if no1 sais anything orginizations like these will get away with making fasle statements aimed towards certain communities! You can do something about it So make a change (thats my radical activist side talking lol)

[spidergecko]

First off, everyone seems to be missing the audience of this article: parents and children. You need to view the article with this perpective in mind.

Originally Posted by rrrrr

Crap. I have bought from breeders and I know many breeders. It is not typical for them to be kept in unsanitary conditions. Serious health problems are the exception rather than the rule with captive-bred animals.

Some breeders sell to distributors or some other form of intermediate. The conditions in these places are questionable. Those sickly leopard geckos in the pet store do not usually turn out that way in the store.

Crap. Care varies from species to species. Many require minimal AND specialized care. Take a corn snake for example. Care IS minimal. Mine takes maybe 1/10th the care my cat does, and let's not even talk about dogs.

You might want to re-read the quote because the author did write "Depending on the variety ...". And you are confusing minimal care with simple care. Reptiles do not require minimal care. They are much more difficult to keep than rodents and fishes and parents view these as disposable pets. In the simplest terms, they need things that mom can't pick up from the grocery store during Saturday shopping. A marine aquarium is a PITA to get running but once it's up, it runs with almost no care. Children often don't have the attention span to bring their reptiles up to the "care-free" stage.

Fresh water...yes. spotless at all times? That's hyperbole.

As stated earlier, the audience is parents and kids. A reptile enclosure must remain spotless, not for the animal, but for the child who is in contact with the animal and enclosure.

So? Cats are carnivorous and are susceptible to cancer, feline diabetes, urinary tract blockages and ingrown dew-claws. This "fact" is completely irrelevant and is only stated to scare people.

Hamsters and gerbils are not carnivores and since these along with reptiles are viewed as disposible pets by parents, the idea of feeding mice and even insects to another animal is beyond their scope of reasoning. It is all a matter of comparison.

Total crap. Many geckos come from areas with a significant natural variation in temperature.

The idea is temperature consistency. You can not leave a leopard gecko or anole (common first lizards and the subject of this article) without heat. Many children will use only a low wattage household light bulb to heat their pets and will usually forget to turn it on (or off) at some point. Variation is one thing but long term exposure to suboptimal temperature is lethal.

crap...some do, and some dont. Try feeding baby mice to a scorpion gecko. Some geckos eat a fair bit of nectar and fruit as well.

Again, the subject is leos and similar newbie reptiles. You are attacking a point that is true, but since it does not apply to all reptiles, you view it as wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised if an adult male scorion gecko could eat a newborn mouse. They eat anything.

Not crap but alarmist rhetoric. Better rethink buying eggs. Oh and chicken too. Oh, and 36% of healthy dogs and 18% of healthy cats carry salmonella as well. (http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/pbs/zoono...almonella.html) Salmonella is in the pop of a LOT of animals. Proper hygiene is the correct way to deal with it.

I'm glad you agree with the proper hygiene because this counters the point you made earlier about clean water and enclosures.

Many animals carry salmonella but reptiles fit nicely in the childrens' mouths.

I am not saying I agree with PETA or with the article but frankly, there is nothing in the article that would make a new herp keeper kill their first pet. If anything it goes a little overboard with caution but I'm sure you would agree that overcaution is better than ignorance.

[Bighead]

As you might see, they were bashing the incorrect or rediculous statements. Like the one about who wants to have a freezer full of dead animals when all of us omnivores do anyway and how all turtles need enough water to swim in when many would sink like a rock if put in water over their heads, and how geckos eat baby mice and require an environment without the slightest variance in temperature, when in fact they can die without some variance in temperature, being cold-blooded and all, etc. Don't be so quick to bash people who are bashing people who bash us reptile owners.

[spidergecko]

Originally Posted by Bighead

As you might see, they were bashing the incorrect or rediculous statements. Like the one about who wants to have a freezer full of dead animals when all of us omnivores do anyway and how all turtles need enough water to swim in when many would sink like a rock if put in water over their heads, and how geckos eat baby mice and require an environment without the slightest variance in temperature, when in fact they can die without some variance in temperature, being cold-blooded and all, etc. Don't be so quick to bash people who are bashing people who bash us reptile owners.

Perspective.

[Linds]

Originally Posted by spidergecko

I'm glad you agree with the proper hygiene because this counters the point you made earlier about clean water and enclosures.

Many animals carry salmonella but reptiles fit nicely in the childrens' mouths.

It most certainly does not. Proper hygeine when dealing with zoonotic disease is completely different from a spotless enclosure. Sterile environments are unhealthy for reptiles (or anyone for that matter), as it causes them to lose resistance towards every day pathogens. A strong immune system is important in all healthy animals, and building a resistance is a vital part of that, however that isn't to say you must go out to the yard and eat a mouthful of poop. It isn't a matter of black and white. Yes, many reptiles DO temptingly fit in a child's mouth, but that only goes towards the arguement that no reptile (or ANY animal, no matter what size) should be unsupervised with ANY child, no matter how well-behaved that child is perceived to be. The sooner more people realize this, the sooner we will be seeing less 'incidents'.

Originally Posted by spidergecko

I am not saying I agree with PETA or with the article but frankly, there is nothing in the article that would make a new herp keeper kill their first pet.

The point of the article isn't to make people kill, or not kill, their first pet - it is to prevent people from ever getting to the point where they would HAVE their first pet. Radical works like that are a very real threat to our hobby.

Originally Posted by spidergecko

Some breeders sell to distributors or some other form of intermediate. The conditions in these places are questionable. Those sickly leopard geckos in the pet store do not usually turn out that way in the store.

Some do, but certainly it shouldn't be generalized in that way. There are places that DO buy quality animals from quality sources, and MOST breeders DO raise their animals in proper surroundings. The answer isn't to ban these all together, or try to scare people off with generalizations like that, but to take steps towards increasing awareness in the public and quality control standards in establishments.

[Rikki]

Originally Posted by Ixidor

btw Ch3m1cal_x, PETA wouldn't support the grass modifications either, to them, grass has feelings too =D

Obviously he was joking. I understand PETA can be a little to drastic at times, certainly around the pet trade, though they are helping the enviornment in their own way, so they are not exactly someone I can really talk about. I think we should respect everyons opinions, and be a little more open minded. I am not, and will not be a member of PETA though I dont have to bash them constantly, its a free country, they are welcome to do as they please.

I think it would be a good idea to send a few emails to PETA from all of us who take care of our reptiles as they should be and ask them 'How is this wrong'? Or 'How is this animal Dieing'? Be sure to include pics of your reptiles. I am going to send an email or two to PETA. I think you all should do the same if you have the time.

[ravensgait]

Rikki wrote:
Obviously he was joking. I understand PETA can be a little to drastic at times, certainly around the pet trade, though they are helping the enviornment in their own way, so they are not exactly someone I can really talk about. I think we should respect everyons opinions, and be a little more open minded. I am not, and will not be a member of PETA though I dont have to bash them constantly, its a free country, they are welcome to do as they please.

Rikki just what have they done for the environment??? they don't spend their funds on anything other than trying to free the poor slave animals, yelling BS at the top of their lungs and well take your pick of the other BS they perpetrate , well I suppose on their dates as well lol.

I don't know about you but I'm not willing to live and let live with a bunch of NUTs who want to change the world to fit their asinine views. Randy

[SDG]

"Rikki just what have they done for the environment??? they don't spend their funds on anything other than trying to free the poor slave animals, yelling BS at the top of their lungs and well take your pick of the other BS"

Although PETA have their own agenda and ways of doing things, the secondary effect of their goals would alleviate many of our current environmental concerns. Livestock farming has destroyed natural habitat in savannah, temperate, tropical and other areas around the world. Erosion, sedimentation, direct mortality of species, land stripping, slash and burn for grazing etc. has put many species on the brink of extinction and decreased the quality of our water, land and in some cases air. There is no such thing as a safe method of livestock farming in terms of environmental health and sustainability in today's world. The human population is far beyond any ecologically friendly farming methods. True environmentalism can not be acheived without sacrifice in both diet and habits, actions that have taken years of personal research to understand. It is common sense that tells us we have pushed our resources to the limits and without drastic change, species recovery is limited at best. Although I do not agree with all of PETA's tactics, they have at least made positive change in many of the ways we view and "use" animals. The issues of environmental degredation and animal farming are extremely complex, political and increasingly apparent. Any form of intelligent discourse must acknowledge such things if we are to retain at least portions of our natural habitat and species. Just a comment from someone who deals with the effects of livestock and wildlife on a regular basis. I have seen the issues and I work to limit the negative consequences.
The original topic has waned, but I think we need to see the collective issues at hand and spare our petty insults for the true culprits. The true terrorists are the ones taking away what little natural areas we have left, many of which are in government.

[ravensgait]

SGD and just what has PETA done about any of that?? Not one thing!!! Nadda nothing!! So what was it your were saying ??? Not taking a shot at you just pointing out some things about this Terrorist group you seem to be defending. Randy