Another hospital incompetence story

[psilocybe]

Originally Posted by SCReptiles

I have been thru this debate so many times. I am part of a subculture of venomous keepers that believes in hands on herpticulture. You are part of a subculture of herpticulture that believes in keeping venomous snakes. Herpticulture in general is part of the animal keeping subculture. And animal keepers are subculture of the culture. You can make the case it’s unsafe for me to free hand venomous snakes and that I shouldn’t do it. But the herpticulture subculture can make the case, it’s not safe to keep venomous snakes, and you shouldn’t do it. General animal keepers can make the case keeping any snake is too dangerous and that no one should keep them. That framework being laid, you can make a case against me free handling that I can not counter, but the subculture above you can make just as strong of a case against you keeping venomous snakes. And the culture above that can make a case against keeping snakes. I already know what you will say, I keep them for the joy of it, the ascetics, and the beauty….blah blah blah. I can’t fully appreciate something I can not touch and I personally would not have an animal I was afraid to handle. Get on your soap box and preach against me all you want. Your main point will of course be, free handlers are too much of a risk and it may lead to keeping be outlawed. It a good strong point, however, a boa keeper has just as strong of a case for people keeping venomous leading to the total outlawing of snakes. If you look at the wording of the new bans, they are not just saying venomous, they are saying dangerous snakes and outlawing the large constrictors as well. So, you are right, I shouldn’t do it. But the boa keepers that say you shouldn’t keep are right also. Luckily, we live in a country where we have rights, and I have just as much right to take the risk of free handling as you have the right to keep. And if I am hurt free handling, I have just as much right to medical care as you do if you are envenomatied while bagging a snake with a hook. I took excess risk in my hobby, just as you did in yours. And if you really think hospitals are not opened for profit, then you have no concept of reality and debating you is an exercise in futility.

Due to the civility of your last post, I will likewise try to be as civil in my post as possible.

I have been thru this debate so many times. I am part of a subculture of venomous keepers that believes in hands on herpticulture. You are part of a subculture of herpticulture that believes in keeping venomous snakes. Herpticulture in general is part of the animal keeping subculture. And animal keepers are subculture of the culture. You can make the case it’s unsafe for me to free hand venomous snakes and that I shouldn’t do it. But the herpticulture subculture can make the case, it’s not safe to keep venomous snakes, and you shouldn’t do it. General animal keepers can make the case keeping any snake is too dangerous and that no one should keep them. That framework being laid, you can make a case against me free handling that I can not counter, but the subculture above you can make just as strong of a case against you keeping venomous snakes.

While it is true that boa keepers might be able to say, "Hey stupid, keeping venomous snakes is dangerous!", and general animal keepers might be able to say "Hey stupid, keeping snakes is dangerous", the facts remain that one of the most common of pets, dogs, kill more people in this country every year than ANY exotic pet. Numbers play into this, but if I were faced with dealing with an angry snake, or any angry dog, I'd choose the snake everytime. You are right, non-venomous keepers can argue against venomous keepers, and non-herp keepers can argue against snakes in general. They can already come up with enough arguments, illogical as they are, to which we shouldn't keep them. Why give them one more nail by which to nail our coffin shut?

The biggest reason that venomous herpeteculture is getting a bad wrap in society is irresponsibility by keepers...animals getting lose, high-profile bites, and yes, freehandling all cast a negative image of venomous keepers on society. If all keepers were responsible and qualified, the public would probably be largely blind to the hobby in general. If all keepers stocked AV instead of robbing it from zoos when something goes wrong, we'd all be better off. Accidents happen, no doubt...very qualified handlers get bitten, it's called human error. But why up the ante by freehandling? If you freehandle, sooner or later (probably sooner), you WILL be bitten. By freehandling, you virtually guarentee that outcome. Name me a freehandler who hasn't been bitten at least once (and if they continue, they are gonna rack up more). I doubt such a man (or woman) exists. By publically announcing yourself as a freehandler by posting pictures, anouncing bites on forums, and whatever else you do, you give the dissenters yet ANOTHER argument against venomous snakekeeping, because they will use the (il)logic that all or most venomous keepers take such risks and chances.

I'm all for personal freedoms. If irresponsible behavior didn't have negative consequences all across the board, I'd say to each his own. I mean, do I really care if some guy who freehandles his hot gets nailed and takes the eternal dirt nap, not really. Unless it makes everyone else who keeps venomous snakes look that stupid, which in the ignorant eye of the general public, trust me, it does. In this country, instead of stressing individual accountability, we take the actions of a few, and try and sanitize the rest of the country.

As for hospitals, obviously they make money...but it's usually the investors who are profiting, not the hospital itself. I don't know about SC, but here in NM, hospital ER's are WAY understaffed, doctors and nurses underpaid. The investors who keep the hospital running are making their wallets fat. But the local government has to subsidize the hospital costs JUST to keep it running. Trust me, ER docs do not make that much money.

This is besides the point. I never once said that a person who ends up in the ER because they were freehandling should be denied treatment. What I did say is this: It is a FACT, one that can't be argued, that the vast majority of doctors in this country are completely ignorant when it comes to treating native species bites, much less exotic. If you freehandle, you should be aware of this, and what can happen in the ER if you get bitten. The same can happen to me if I get tagged, even though I try and minimize that by using proper tools and techniques. I accept that by keeping venomous snakes, I am putting myself at some risk, as low as I might see it to be. I know that if I go into the ER with a bite, it might be mismanaged, that's just a simple fact when it comes to snakebite. Is it right? No. Is it reality? Yes. By freehandling, you are increasing your chances of getting bitten, therefore increasing your chances of having your bite mismanaged, and furthermore increasing your chances of dying or being maimed. Sure, you can sue them, a matter of fact, I'd encourage it. But what amount of money in the world is gonna bring back your arm, or worse yet, your life? I don't plan on ever being bitten, but I know it's a definite possibility. I'm prepared for it, and am accepting of the consequences, including mismanagment at the hospital. I do my best to educate the doctors, but things happen, and they don't always turn out they way they are planned. By freehandling, you turn that possibility of being bitten into a guarentee. I don't have the amount of confidence in doctors that I would dramatically increase my chances of visiting them. Maybe you do.

And if I am hurt free handling, I have just as much right to medical care as you do if you are envenomatied while bagging a snake with a hook. I took excess risk in my hobby, just as you did in yours.

Here's the difference. I take measures to minimize the possibility of being bitten. What measures can you take to minimize being bitten when freehandling? I don't freehandle, so maybe I don't know, but I can't think of any...if they snake is unrestrained, it is PURELY up to the snake whether you get bitten or not. One saftey measure (though some would consider it equally as dangerous, I'll choose not to comment) that freehandlers take is self-innoculation. At least it's something

It appears that at this point, we are gonna have to agree to disagree. I will say Chuck that there are no hard feelings on this end. We already have enough enemies against the hobby as a whole, we don't need to start making ones within.

Be safe,

Abhishek Prasad

[SCReptiles]

The biggest reason that venomous herpeteculture is getting a bad wrap in society is irresponsibility by keepers...animals getting lose, high-profile bites, and yes, freehandling all cast a negative image of venomous keepers on society.

I completely agree on the irresponsible keepers and the escaped snakes. I can think of two states (TN & AL) that had laws passed due to escapes. However, I need an example of the bad press from freehandling. I do knot know of a single bit of negative pub from freehandling.

If all keepers stocked AV instead of robbing it from zoos when something goes wrong

Who paid for the AV at a zoo? Tax dollars!!! Seems I paid for that AV, so I don’t see it as robbing if I need to use something I paid for.

Name me a freehandler who hasn't been bitten at least once (and if they continue, they are gonna rack up more). I doubt such a man (or woman) exists.

Mark Kilby of the Luray Reptile Zoo. Been handling longer then I have been alive and never bitten. www.lurayzoo.com

As for hospitals, obviously they make money...but it's usually the investors who are profiting, not the hospital itself. I don't know about SC, but here in NM, hospital ER's are WAY understaffed, doctors and nurses underpaid. The investors who keep the hospital running are making their wallets fat.

Investors open hospitals for profit, doctors become doctors for profit. That is pure and simple. If the Dr they hire are incompetent, then it will affect the bottom line of the investors.

I will say Chuck that there are no hard feelings on this end. We already have enough enemies against the hobby as a whole, we don't need to start making ones within.

I completely agree.

I've been reading the posts that have been going back and forth, and stayed out of it, as I really don't know anything about the topic. That's sorta the point of this pm. You said that you free handle hots religiously, and I'm just curious about that aspect. What religion decrees, or at least praises, free handling serpents? If you want, just point me in the direction of a good paper or something to read. Thanks in advance.

There seems to be a misconception here. I am not a religious serpent handler, though I know many of them. Some are friends. They are a fundamental Christian sect. They base it on Mark 16:18. They take up serpents, drink poison, and speak in tongues. All part of the signs described by Mark. The thing is, these were special powers granted only to the first century Christians who did not have a bible to validate what they were saying. It’s not a power we can claim today, but they do not see it that way. They do not understand time lines….if they read it in black and white, you can’t convince them otherwise. Serpent handling has been going on throughout history, but it was brought into the public eye by George Went Hensley, some time around 1900. He made the practice popular right here in my hometown. I have probably done more research on it then anyone. I will be publishing a paper I co-authored with a PHD theologian in a couple of weeks. He addresses the theology of it and I address the herpetology. When the work is done, I will post it on ssnakess.
http://religiousmovements.lib.virgin...ms/Snakes.html
http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/oct19...3-article2.htm
http://www.chuckconner.com/serpenthandling1.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ehandlers.html
http://www.les.appstate.edu/courses/...gion/snake.htm
http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfr...kill-fool.html

P.S. How's your friend doing?

Full recovery. Finger still stiff, but otherwise fine. As I was saying, the Dr was correct, it was not a threatening bit, but she had no way of knowing that when she made the call.

[psilocybe]

Originally Posted by SCReptiles

Who paid for the AV at a zoo? Tax dollars!!! Seems I paid for that AV, so I don’t see it as robbing if I need to use something I paid for.

I started a long diatribe about this one particular comment, but decided to simplify it. I can't agree with this comment. Zoo AV is for one purpose: to protect the zoo's employees who work with venomous reptiles in the event of a bite, not the general public. Those keepers pay taxes too, hence they have as much of a right to the AV as you claim to have (actually more, considering that snakebite is a job hazard, not a consequence of the hobby), and if you use it up, they are the ones screwed. How would you feel if a zoo keeper got tagged doing his JOB (hopefully he wouldn't have been freehandling, ), and there was no AV because you used it for a bite you sustained during freehandling? Exotic AV can take up to months to restock, depending on many variables. In this time, zoo keepers lives are in danger if their AV is used up. In addition, you are claiming ownership to zoo AV. Therefore, every other tax payer who happens to keep venomous, by your logic, is entitled to this AV as well. Do you really feel it's the zoos responsiblity to cover all these people, when the state (if the state actually pays for it, I've never heard of this, maybe just in SC?) only provides them with enough money for a very small amount of AV (i.e. a few moderate bites)? What are their keepers supposed to do? I will ask Terry Phillip about this, he is curator of the Black Hills Reptile Park in South Dakota, and they house and display one of the most impressive collections of venomous snakes in North America (including all 3 species of Oxyuranus).

As for the guy who's never been tagged, well, ya got me there. If he regularly freehandles and has not been tagged, he is an anomaly. I highly doubt there are many (if any) more people like him.

Regardless, you see things your way and I see them mine. I will handle hots with hooks, you will handle them with your hands. Hopefully neither of us will be getting tagged.

[SCReptiles]

Zoo AV is for one purpose: to protect the zoo's employees who work with venomous reptiles in the event of a bite, not the general public.

A lot of what we have discussed up to this point has only been opinion, with no means to prove you or I right or wrong….however, at this point you are completely wrong and it very easy to prove. The ONLY way exotic AV, SIMAR, for example can be imported into the United States is via an experimental medicine permit. The language of this permit is very clear. The ownership of the medicine is the researching physician and further more, the permit clearly states the medicine must be made available to ANYONE in the event of an emergency.

Those keepers pay taxes too, hence they have as much of a right to the AV as you claim to have (actually more, considering that snakebite is a job hazard, not a consequence of the hobby)

I am the director of herpetology at the local nature center, so I am sure you would have no problems with me using AV, since working with snake is part of my job. Good to know I have your support.

every other tax payer who happens to keep venomous, by your logic, is entitled to this AV as well.

Exactly, if you pay taxes, you paid for that AV if its at a public zoo. If you needed, you have the legal right to it, as provided in the permits system and you have the moral right to it, as you paid for it in the first place.

maybe just in SC?)

Why do you keep talking about SC? I clearly told you I live in TN…are you not paying attention?

As for the guy who's never been tagged, well, ya got me there. If he regularly freehandles and has not been tagged, he is an anomaly. I highly doubt there are many (if any) more people like him.

Wrong again!!! How many shall I name for you?
Why would you make statements like this? You are so incorrect it’s obvious you have not done any research on the matter. How many freehandlers do you even know? If you want to debate, do a little research and get back to me.

[BWSmith]

Uggh. I hate to jump in again but i just a side note. I have met dozens of freehandlers. I have never met one that has not been envenomated. I am sure that they are out there, but I have not met a single one.

[SCReptiles]

not true BW...you have met at least two that i know of. i am not dropping their names, but they are always with me...you know them. both free handle, nither has ever been bit. and i could list probably 10 more on top of them.

[davo]

I can't understand the phobia like "anti-freehandling" attitude of some some of the forum members. I don't see any evidence of freehandlers trying to force anybody else to do likewise so why all the fuss. If you freehandle go for it, if you don't then don't.