euthanasia - once & for all

[mice_unlimited]

CO2!!!!!!

[Jeff Hathaway]

Cookie,

CO (carbon monoxide) is known as the silent killer. CO2 (carbon dioxide) is a normal part of our atmosphere and our respiration processes. Indeed, it can kill if the concentration is higher than normal as discussed in the paper Darren posted. And it is silent, unless you're releasing large quantities of the gas into a chamber. But it is not the 'silent killer' of people in their homes or garages that you hear about on TV.

I have heard from rodent breeders several times that pinkies gassed with CO2 for very long exposure times did not die. They appeared to become unconscious, but soon recovered after removal from the gas. I believe the solution used most often was to gas them into unconsciousness and then freeze them, which sounds like a better way to go.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by Cookie
First of all common sense tells me freezing anything to death is wrong!........................all i can say is please give your herps that much as to have it done right

ok cookie, or mice_unlimited should I say.

why do you need to back up your claim by loging under an other nickname and approuve yourself?

Originally posted by mice_unlimited
I 100% agree Cookie

Am just curious.

[Matt_K]

cookie, if you're caught making another account for reasons like this or ANY other reason again, both names AND your ip will be banned...

-Matt

[bistrobob85]

now thats funny... can i back myself up too? I would feel sooo much secure!!!

Anyways, as for the killing, i haven't been able to reach the initial site on freezing herps but in my opinion, cooling a reptile makes it unaware and nearly asleep... If i had to FREEZE one to death, i would defenetly get it to cool down a lot, then go to the refrigerator and then to the freezer. Putting it directly in the freezer would be pretty painful for sure... As for rodents, i knock them unconscious, preferably dead before i put them in the freezer. I don't feel bad about it because i truly feel it is the best death i can offer them.

Thats what i do and how i feel about it but just besides, why do we want to kill animals in a humane way? Isn't this a little ridiculous? To animals kill each other in a humane way? They can't, they're animals! I think we wan't to kill them in a humane way because we don't want to feel like animals... We kill them in a humane way just to consider ourselves as good people and justify it by the fact that we don't like to see them suffer. Suffering is a part of life, a part we fear and refuse, yes, but still a part of life.

phil.

[bistrobob85]

I meant '' Do animals kill each other in a humane way? ''

[Nicky]

hmmm i;m not so sure about the frezing one, at least for reptiles my cousins cham got sick a few years back after reaching around 10 years ( around thier at least) he went to a very experinced vet who simply put his cham in a modified deep freezer.The vet simply said they simply fell asleep due to the cold and that was that. Also I heard decaptiating a reptile was a very inhimane way to kill them , read it on one of the anti-rattlesnake roundups sights because thats the way there killed thier and it causes excess suffering( can't rember exacatly) Has anyone else heard of this? The rest of the info seemed pretty accurate but I'm not to sure about the freezing and decaptition of reptile ones( mammals are obviously a different story.)
Just my opinion though
Cheers
Kayla

[thunder]

actually, having worked in a lab, i was taught that decapitation is the most humane may to put a reptile down, provided that it is done with one swift stroke. the spinal cord is severed and death is immediate. the body may twitch, but the animal is not suffering, as it is dead. it is very selfish of people to freeze their animals; they do it cuz they dont want to see it die, maybe they feel less responsible for the death if it is indirect like that. but, having autopsied animals that were frozen to death, i have seen first hand that ice crystals form on the organs, tearing the flesh, before death occured. we know that it was before death because it caused internal bleeding, which does not happen after death. if an animal is alive while its insides are being torn apart by ice crystals, it is my strong belief that they are in pain. as for the argument of whether or not reptiles feel pain, i would rather err on the side of being overly humane.

[Nicky]

ahhh i c, thanks for sharing I'll rember that in the future when the enadable comes.

[Linds]

Originally posted by coldblooded
Actually, freezing pinkies (just pinkies) is better than using co2 because the pinkies are naturally quite resistant to asphyxiation...

While gassing them is ineffective, freezing pinkies is not a good method either. I just use massive brain trauma. I pinch their heads flat with my fingers. It works great for young rodents.

Originally posted by thunder
if an animal is alive while its insides are being torn apart by ice crystals, it is my strong belief that they are in pain.

While they are no doubt still alive, can you say that they are any bit aware or even remotely conscious? Even brumating reptiles are barely responsive, and this is only at 60 degrees, not even close to -30 or whatever. They need heat for their system to function, so if they are suddenly deprived, then... ? I'm not so much concerned with the visual findings as I am interested in finding out what actually happens. Is it merely an assumption that it isn't humane based on necropsy results?

That being said, I agree any massive trauma to the brain or decapitation is the best 'home methods'. I'm undecided where I stand on freezing, as I haven't really seen any facts that lead me to a definite answer.

[thunder]

we have no way of knowing what the animal is feeling. when you note that a brumating snake is unresponsive, it is important to remember that its inability to react is not neccessarily an indicator that it is not aware of stimulus. it is true that the results of my necropsies do not show that the animal felt pain, but as i said before, i do not believe that it is unreasonable to assume that as long as the animal is alive it can feel pain to some degree; and i choose to avoid this method of euthanasia because i am not willing to gamble on it. better to use other methods that we know are immediate than use a method where there is even question of causing suffering to the animal.

[coldblooded]

Thunder:

Decapitation leaves the reptile with no head..yes... but apparently there is brain activity up to an hour.

I can't be sure as I have never decapitated anything. I belive the best way is co2 and a good ol' pithing. (I believe thats what they call it)

Mike

[Linds]

Originally posted by thunder
we have no way of knowing what the animal is feeling.

Not true. I'm sure there are some means of measuring the animals brain activity during freezing, what the responses are and analyzing what chemicals are being released. These are all sure indicators of what a reptile would be feeling.

Originally posted by coldblooded

I can't be sure as I have never decapitated anything. I belive the best way is co2 and a good ol' pithing. (I believe thats what they call it)

Many reptiles have shallow enough respiratory systems that make co2 a poor option for euthanization.

[coldblooded]

I did not realize that Linds...

You really squish their heads between your fingers? EWWWW... I don't even like when I squish a cricket through the bag!!

Mike

[Linds]

Originally posted by coldblooded

Decapitation leaves the reptile with no head..yes... but apparently there is brain activity up to an hour.

I've not heard of brain activity lasting that long, but even if it were to last all day, it wouldn't be functioning properly, or even remotely conscious. The brain needs a constant supply of oxygen-rich blood, regardless of the type of animal, to function. 2-4 minutes without fresh blood supplying the brain will cause the brain to start dying.

Hehehe... yeah the brain squishing took a while to get used to squishing the little ones. Took a little practice to get it on the right angle, so as not to shoot the brain out the nostrils It's an ultra hands-on approach, but it's the only way I can see of immediately killing them.