Is it wrong... - Page 2

M_surinamensis · 11-16-04, 05:56 PM

Here's a question... When did you buy it?

'cause here's the thing of it in my mind... if you bought it as a neonate and it's now a year and a half old, the seller may not even remember selling it to you, much less the individual snake. Asking for a refund or replacement is kind of out of line if you waited too long before verifying the sex of the animal. What would you ask for as a replacement anyway? A female of the same age? A neonate female?

Even assuming that the newest sexing was correct and that it was (hopefully unintentionally) misrepresented there's a limit to how long a seller should have to stay married to a sale (although if the animal was sold as proven, that's a whole new ballgame). While they have a responsibility to either sex things correctly and verify it a few times prior to selling it as a sexed animal (mistakes can still happen) YOU as a buyer have a responsibility to verify that the purchase you made was the one you intended to make within a reasonable period of time. If the sex mattered at the time of purchase, then you should have verified it at or immediately after the time of purchase for yourself. And this will be a bit harsh but... if you can't verify it yourself (a third party doesn't hurt in matters like this but...) then you have no business breeding animals (or selling them as sexed in a resale situation) and the gender shouldn't matter.

Ron · 11-16-04, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by M_surinamensis
Here's a question... When did you buy it?

'cause here's the thing of it in my mind... if you bought it as a neonate and it's now a year and a half old, the seller may not even remember selling it to you, much less the individual snake. Asking for a refund or replacement is kind of out of line if you waited too long before verifying the sex of the animal. What would you ask for as a replacement anyway? A female of the same age? A neonate female?

Even assuming that the newest sexing was correct and that it was (hopefully unintentionally) misrepresented there's a limit to how long a seller should have to stay married to a sale (although if the animal was sold as proven, that's a whole new ballgame). While they have a responsibility to either sex things correctly and verify it a few times prior to selling it as a sexed animal (mistakes can still happen) YOU as a buyer have a responsibility to verify that the purchase you made was the one you intended to make within a reasonable period of time. If the sex mattered at the time of purchase, then you should have verified it at or immediately after the time of purchase for yourself. And this will be a bit harsh but... if you can't verify it yourself (a third party doesn't hurt in matters like this but...) then you have no business breeding animals (or selling them as sexed in a resale situation) and the gender shouldn't matter.

I was thinking the same thing. I might start photographing all my animals for sale and start keeping records of who buys them.

A dishonest person could come back to a vendor a week later with a male after he/she switched it for the female that was originally purchased.

Tim_Cranwill · 11-16-04, 06:38 PM

Ron, that's never a bad idea. Photo records are something every herper should keep if they are selling or buying on a regular basis. The pictures don't have to be works of art either. They just need to show the entire snake and possibly an identifying mark or two. When I did my collection a while back I put a ruler in a bin and tweaked the lighting a bit then I just did the old “one take Charlie". Within the hour I had a database of every snake in my house.

BoidKeeper · 11-16-04, 07:16 PM

Yup I for sure will take pics of any and all pastels I sell next year if I do indeed produce and sell any. Protects the seller no question.
Cheers,
Trevor

Corey Woods · 11-16-04, 09:05 PM

I guess the question is how long is a persons guarentee valid for? If you bought it at the last TO show that would mean you bought it over 2 months ago (last show was in Sept and it is now Nov). Was their even a guarentee? If the sexing guarentee is good for 2 months what would have happend if you waited a year to have it sexed..........what about 2 years???.....When does the responsibility shift from the seller onto the buyer?

I've had stuff sold me to a "female" that turned out to be a male......from some big names as well. The best way to sex something is to do it yourself......that way if something isn't done properly down the road the only person you can get mad at is yourself!

Good luck
Corey

BoidKeeper · 11-16-04, 09:13 PM

Quote:

The best way to sex something is to do it yourself......that way if something isn't done properly down the road the only person you can get mad at is yourself!

Amen to that!
Trevor

Bartman · 11-16-04, 10:03 PM

I guess you guys are right, it isnt really fair to the guy to now say its a male and you said it was female.

Quote:

Why put so much emphases on the spurs? You mention that twice in your "100% sure it's a male" post. Why focus on an arbitrary way of determining the sex versus probing or popping which are (IMO) WAY more accurate. If I sold a snake I sexed and then got a call with the word "spurs" mentioned over and over, I would be hesitant to take the person seriously. However, if they told me a friend probed or popped the snake, that would be a different matter.

I dont think you understood me maybe, but I meant he DID probe it, AND by looking at the spurs it makes it look even more like a male, so all in all im saying its a male. I saw him probe this one and the stick covered 6 scales. Matt, not to sound sarcastic, but would you maybe want to sex the snake this sunday for me just to make it officially 100 percent?

And sorry if I sounded like I was shooting down your advice, but im almost positive its a male. Wanna teach me how to do it too?

Then ill never make this mistake again.

Ive decided ill just keep this male, and buy two young females at the show since ive just gotten paid a nice sum of money

And later on if its possible, ill get rid of the new male, but im in no rush.

As for the guarentee and all that, you guys are right. It is not his fault for many reasons and he doesnt deserve to have to give me a new one. Im going to ask him anyway as it cant hurt, but im going in assuming ill get a "theres nothing I can do now".

Thanks for replies!

Corey Woods · 11-16-04, 10:36 PM

Adam,

Things are a lot easier once you learn how to sex animals.......

If you had gotten home and discovered it was a male I'd say definately contact the seller for an exchange or refund. But, IMHO, 2 months is a pretty big window to cover. It would all be upto the seller to determine if too much time had passed to cover the mishap. Most people offer a 2 day guarentee......if any at all. Most show sales are considered final once you purchase the animal since you got to see it in person before hand (shipping sales have a 2 day guarentee as the purchaser cannot physically see the animal before hand).

Corey

Bartman · 11-16-04, 10:38 PM

Yea it makes total sense, and I really dont expect him now to replace it. I was just bumbed, and wanted to know if I would be TOTALLY wrong in asking for something out of it.

Oh well

Tim_Cranwill · 11-16-04, 10:41 PM

Corey, I see what you're saying but personally, I would guarantee the sex for life if I sexed a snake. If I'm wrongfully sexing snakes, I would want to know about it and make good on the situation if at all possible. Health guarantees are a little tricky though because a LOT can happen to an animal in two months but the sex should remain the same. That's just MY outlook.

Tim_Cranwill · 11-16-04, 10:43 PM

Adam, at least talk to the guy and see what he says. Learning to verify the sex of a snake is a skill that will benefit you over and over and over. I can't imagine keeping/breeding and NOT learning how. It's a necessity, in my mind.

Bartman · 11-16-04, 10:46 PM

I sort of learned how today. You lube the probe and stick it toward the tail end of the snake and nudge it in on the sides near the spurs. Im just not really confident enough to do it and not harm the snake. I wouldnt know what im doing wrong, ya know?

M_surinamensis · 11-16-04, 11:36 PM

Tim, I respect lifetime garantees on traits which can't change but I have a sort of question...

If, as a hypothetical, I purchased a neonate animal from you, "guaranteed" to be a certain gender... and then sexed it for the first time say... two years later and it turned out a mistake was made... Would you; refund the original purchase price and take the snake back? Trade the snake for a neonate of the appropriate gender? Trade the snake for an animal of the appropriate gender and the same approximate age as the one which was missexed?

There can be a massive price difference between males and females... and neonates and breeder age animals in many cases. What value would be assigned to the animal if you were going to make good on the mistake? Replacing an adult animal with a neonate usually means a financial loss and serious time-setback for anyone looking at a breeding project, but replacing with an animal of the same age could lose a seller a great deal of money (Meaning, it was sold at neonate prices, you'd be replacing it with adult prices) which isn't really fair either. This is why I asked and I think Adam knows what I mean (Although two months isn't bad and they might offer a similar animal of the correct gender if they have one, it doesn't hurt to ask) when it comes to the buyer accepting responsibility after a point.

If an animal is sold as a proven breeder this goes right out the window of course. And there are genetic traits which can't be proven out for a few years which should have an extended guarantee as well but gender when it's tacked on just as information rather than a sale clincher... there's got to be some kind of reasonable period of time for the buyer to verify the gender that doesn't potentially cause the seller a major financial loss.

Tim_Cranwill · 11-17-04, 12:52 AM

Good question! Let’s say you bought a hatchling normal female ball off of me and went to breed it in 2 years only to have it combat it's "mate" and end up a male, I would send you a breeding size female and pay the shipping. If it was a morph of some sort or an animal that I could not replace from my own stock, that would complicate the issue a bit. I would try my best to make you happy though. I would offer a comparable (to said animal’s current value) neonate at a REDUCED price, offer a different species of a similar "value" or etc until YOU were happy (within reason). I know this would mean taking a loss but that's the way the cookie crumbles. I guess I should have made darn sure of the sex before shipping it.

I've been sold snakes of the wrong sex before and made it all the way to breeding before noticing. I know how crappy that is and I know what I wished the breeder would have done as compensation. That is what I would try to do. There isn’t a cut and dry answer for 99% of the cases but I would never say "It's been too long. You lose", even if it had been 4 years.

This is assuming they could verify that the animal was sold to them by me, was still alive and I felt they had properly sexed it to be the opposite of what I found. I would not send a replacement if all I heard was "She didn't lay eggs for me" or something like that. I would need to be satisfied that they correctly sexed the animal. I would, however, give them the benefit of the doubt.

it's a good question with a tough answer. All I can really say is that I would try my best to satisfy your needs at that time either with an animal, a significant discount/credit or even some cash to buy what you need if it came to that.

Bartman · 11-17-04, 08:49 AM

I wish I lived in manitoba, so I could buy EVERYTHING from you.