Whacking/Live feeding/etc.

[Auskan]

Originally posted by jjnnbns
Dry ice and water works well and is fairly inexpensive. Whacking young mice and rats definitely causes them to split and makes a big ol mess.

I've never once had a mouse or rat pup split, and I whack them as hard as I can against the edge of a table, or the bathroom vanity, as I want it to kill them instantly - not leave them suffering and have to re-do it. I've whacked everything from hour old rat pinks to 4-week-old rat pups, always killed them instantly and never had one split.

[M_surinamensis]

Many parasites are very host specific, others are a bit more generalist...

Snake and rodent mites are good examples of highly host specific parasites, they really won't cross from one group to the other to feed. I personally (and I *think* the thread starter) were thinking more of internal parasites though. Many of these are pretty host specific as well, some are not.

With regards to which ones won't be killed... I don't remember specific species offhand. There were a few groups and a few individual species that won't be killed off but will instead go dormant; a few species of worm and a good cross section of bacterial parasites. I moved recently and most my books are still boxed up, I can go digging if you like, but no guarantees on how long it might take me to locate the specific information (I get easily distracted).

It's really an issue of the temperatures used. If you freeze a living organism cold enough, it will eventually die. The question centers around how cold is "cold enough" to get everything. Commercial producers of frozen rodents generally "flash freeze" which involves extremely low temperatures applied very quickly... this is going to kill off more gut fauna than someone whacking their own and dropping it in the freezer next to their burger patties and Hot Pockets... On the other hand though, commercial breeders deal with a far larger number of rodents and, no matter how clean they keep everything, parasite communication is more likely to occur than when dealing with a home breeder who has a colony of a dozen adult feeder breeders. Even the methods used by the commercial rodent breeders aren't 100% though and going the opposite end of the spectrum... everything that has an intestinal tract has parasites, it's a question of how nasty they are and what the population density is, so even a pristine immaculate home breeding setup will have *some* parasites in it.

I didn't wish to give the impression that using frozen rodents was in any way bad or pointless... it greatly reduces the chances of parasitic transmission and I feel that every (non-venomous, although that's a long standing debate) animal which will take frozen thawed should be given frozen thawed... But if there's a picky animal, it needs to be fed what it will take. If that's freshly whacked or even live, then so be it.

Parasite transmission is a valid argument against freshly killed prey items, but it's important to keep it in perspective. Feeding captive bred rodents kept in clean conditions leaves a very small chance of parasitic transmission. Freezing makes for an even smaller chance (not 100% clear, but very very very close) but it's an improvement on a situation which is already close to ideal.

I can't draw very well, but I'm going to talk to a friend to see if they can knock me up a kind of diagram to describe where to apply pressure and the angles involved in prekilling rodents. It's not as good as a video would be and even then there's a certain FEEL to the entire process that lets someone know they are doing it correctly (the sudden release of resistance can be difficult to explain) that can only be gained by trying it until it's done right but... couldn't hurt and it might be of some help. Maybe. To someone. Somewhere.

[jjnnbns]

Auskan, you're lucky. Well over 50% of the rat pinks that I've whacked have split back near the hind leg/pelvic region. I had them in a plastic ziploc bag and used a hard tabletop surface. Hmmm, maybe I just have superhuman strength, lol. That's why I built a gas chamber for them and I didn't breed rats at the time, just bought a few every couple weeks.

[annieb_mice]

<< I moved recently and most my books are still boxed up, I can go digging if you like, but no guarantees on how long it might take me to locate the specific information (I get easily distracted). >>

I would REALLY be interested! My research on the internet hasn't turned up much information and I really despise the "pet rat" information pages, which are VERY misleading and in many cases outright wrong.
You can email me privately if you want, as I'm sure people on here probably won't be too interested in the whole parasitic information stuff... but I love to learn new stuff and I'm sure this knowledge will help me in some way. My email is annieb_mice@yahoo.com Take your time, I know what it's like to move and try to organize in a new place... and stuff... LOL!

I'm not sure if the people who are whacking the pinkie rats are trying fresh killed, but rat and mouse pinks are VERY easily killed by putting them in a freezer for a few minutes. Heck, I've found that most of the mouse pinks are dead within 30 seconds, or at the very least "asleep." I realize you would then have to warm them up again, but if you are a bit squeamish about the whole whacking process, putting them in a freezer for a few minutes works great. I don't recommend doing this with animals that already have their eyes open, but this works good on the hairless pinks and peach fuzz stages.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

"I'm a Newfie... I'm half an hour behind everyone else."

[marisa]

I do what Annie does.....for pinkies and slightly larger they go directly into the freezer.

For anything bigger, we have a whacking day and my boyfriend uses a board and a large screwdriver handle. One whack with the handle and they are DEAD. :P Took some practice but now he can do it instantly, with no blood in almost 100% of the mice we do in a day.

Marisa

[Auskan]

Originally posted by annieb_mice
[BI'm not sure if the people who are whacking the pinkie rats are trying fresh killed, but rat and mouse pinks are VERY easily killed by putting them in a freezer for a few minutes. [/B]

I personally think this is an inhumane way to kill them. Sure, hypothermia eventually causes sleepiness and you just go to sleep and don't wake up, but initially the cold is felt (try locking yourself outside your house in a nightgown in mid-January), and the body works hard to try to keep the temperature up, before submitting to hypothermia. Whacking is instant. I wouldn't put them through even 30 seconds of suffering if it could be avoided.

[annieb_mice]

<< I personally think this is an inhumane way to kill them. Sure, hypothermia eventually causes sleepiness and you just go to sleep and don't wake up, but initially the cold is felt (try locking yourself outside your house in a nightgown in mid-January), and the body works hard to try to keep the temperature up, before submitting to hypothermia. Whacking is instant. I wouldn't put them through even 30 seconds of suffering if it could be avoided. >>


*** I agree with you for the adult animals. But this is actually considered one of the most "humane" ways of killing a newborn mouse or rat, according to several University sites that I have visited, including the University of California and several others.
And there are some people that believe gassing them is inhumane as the CO2 mixture is irritating to the respiratory system and can be quite painful, yet this is widely accepted as one of most humane ways of killing.
Personally, I used to whack my animals, but after trying out CO2, I MUCH prefer that method to any other. No blood... no fuss... no mess... just a dead rodent. But.. that's just my opinion..
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[marisa]

I also remember reading the with young animals, Co2 is not very effective as they have such small lungs and it can take ages to kill them. I do not know if this is true though.

Marisa

[Cruciform]

I did my first CO2 gassing last night.
With the current valve on my tank I was able to get a very small amout of gas flowing but even then it was too much, and I watched the rats gasp, choke, collapse and seize before they died.

It was a terrible thing to see, and I hope I can get the flow control down to the point where sleepiness just creeps up on them.

[ChristinaM]

Ok, I've read TONS over the last few days. Alot of differing opinions especially on the CO2 methods. Some say it is the best, others say that there is sufferring, gasping, etc. ( like the above poster as well as some US university sites, which I will dig up the links for ). As well, I've read what someone mentioned about CO2 NOT being a good method for young rodents.

Personally, I am not into watching them gasp and choke, etc.
Nor do i think I can whack.

From what I have gathered, some conclusions:

- no matter what method you choose, there will be some sufferring. Whether it be fear from being shoved in a bag to be whacked, whacking gone wrong, CO2 not work properly, etc. There will be sufferring.

- the choice of how to kill the prey is a personal, ethical decision. One can give you suggestions, and how-to's, and ultimately its your choice what to do.

- the method of feeding your snake, live/frozen/whatever, is again a personal decision that can be debated over and over. Bottom line, there are pro's and con's to all methods.

- I cannot whack, knowing that it is possible that I will not do it right and have an alive, bloody rodent in my hands. If I could guarentee 100% death then maybe.

QUESTIONS:

1. I've read somewhere about freezing to euthanise. It said that freezing can destroy some of the organs, etc. and lower the nutritional value.

ethics aside, does freezing negatively impact the quality of the rodent?

[annieb_mice]

<< 1. I've read somewhere about freezing to euthanise. It said that freezing can destroy some of the organs, etc. and lower the nutritional value. >>

*** I would ONLY freeze NEWBORN mice and rats and very small fuzzies. When they are that young, they don't have the ability to generate their own body heat yet and die very quickly.
Older mice, from the larger fuzzy stage, can generate their own body heat and can stay alive for a long period of time in a freezer, which I feel is extremely cruel and inhumane.
When you chose to kill, you should do so quickly and with as little pain and/or suffering as possible to the animal you are about to kill.

<Does freezing affect the quality of the rodent?>

*** This depends on how long the animal is left in the freezer, whether it is properly vacuum sealed quickly or simply put into a ziplock bag or just left out.
An animal that is properly vacuum sealed quickly after freezing will have a freezer shelf life of between 2 - 3 years as long as the vacuum seal is not open. An animal in a ziplock bag will not last nearly as long and will start to deteriorate within 5 months. An animal left out will be freezer burnt and unedible within days of being frozen.
As for the actual freezing destroying any of the nutrients, I haven't heard anything ... but I've been wrong before... In my own personal opinion, I don't think there is any substantial loss of quality to a frozen rodent as compared to a freshly killed rodent.
There MIGHT be some "quality loss" with the different thawing methods... A rodent that is thawed and fed off quickly may have less bacteria growth than one that has been left out on the counter to thaw out in the early morning before you leave to work and then fed off in the evening when you get home has a lot more time for harmful bacteria to grow... <think of salmonella with raw chicken> Does this affect the quality of the rodent? Well... I think that's up to personal opinion. Some people do this... some don't.
Hmmm... I went a little off topic there... didn't I? LOL! Sorry for the ramblings....
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[ChristinaM]

hmmmmm, I don't think my question came out clear.

About freezing, I did not mean freezing after death. I read that freezing to euthanise can degrade the quality, as in the freezing process it destroys some of the organs/etc. I will try to find the link to where I read it. maybe that will help

I wasn't comparing fresh killed to frozen thawed.

siodenote: I was thinking as I was reading. I have aquariums. I have predatory fish which get live feeders to eat. I don't kill them before feeding. They are feed live and the fish eat em. It's not a quick process. Some of my fish enjoy wanderring around with prey clasped in their mouths. The prey very much alive. I've seen many a cichlid with a feeder fishes head sticking out of their mouth, and the feeder fish still breathing.....

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. just rambling.

[daver676]

Originally posted by ChristinaM
About freezing, I did not mean freezing after death. I read that freezing to euthanise can degrade the quality, as in the freezing process it destroys some of the organs/etc.

Not to mention freezing to euthanize is cruel as hell.

[ChristinaM]

Originally posted by daver676
Not to mention freezing to euthanize is cruel as hell.

I won't disagree with that one, for older prey. But am researching the thought of it on younger.

But, all ethical issues aside, does freezing the live prey to euthanize, degrade quality?

[Auskan]

Originally posted by ChristinaM
Whether it be fear from being shoved in a bag to be whacked

Mine have no fear of being "shoved" in a bag. For the pinkies, I use a little plastic ziploc bag and at that age they are too clueless to know what's happening. Once they have their eyes open, I use a cloth bag with a drawstring, which they enter willingly. When I open the neck of the bag, it looks like an inviting place to explore and they run right in. Then I simply close the drawstring, and whack and its all over. No fear. No mess. No fuss.