Nursery Cages? - Page 2

Sean Day · 01-31-04, 12:20 PM

Meow

What makes you feel that 4 feet is alright but 5 or 6 isn't?

Sean

choriona · 01-31-04, 12:37 PM

The only thing I would be worried about with a bigger cage is not being able to provide the right conditions for the young one. Smaller chams have a smaller body mass to exposed skin ratio, meaning that they can become dehydrated faster than a larger cham. Also lose heat or gain heat faster. Big chams have more meat than skin, to keep it simple. They are better equiped for variations in temperature and humidity. If you live in a very dry cold place like my house is right now, it would be impossible to have the right ventilation plus humidity.
I guess my advice is - if it is your first cham and you don't know their characters and behavior cues, i would start out in a 20gal tank. (I put up calendar pics around the glass so no confusion is made trying to catch prey thru the glass.) If you don't have an aquarium handy, a rubbermaid container of similiar size is quite easy to set up. This way you can watch your cham easier and get to learn what its colors and postures mean. You can modify the temp and humidity very easily to ensure the proper contidions are being met. It is essential to have a hygrometer and thermometer!
On the other hand, if you have delt with chams before, starting it in the adult cage would be fine, since you should have a good handle on what your cham is feeling.
As for feeding in a large cage, if you keep all sticks off the ground, the crickets should be limited to the area just on the bottom of the cage. Make the sticks close enough that the cham can shoot its tongue all the way to the bottom.

DragnDrop · 01-31-04, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean Day
Hi Hilde

Did you ever have your panthers drop and so called run (lol) thing? I don't ever remember seeing my panthers do this although I am sure they could.

A little of topic from this thread but I think it was you that posted your outdoor cham cages on KS quite a long time ago. If you still have those pics would you mind reposting them here? I remember it being a fairly informative thread, and getting good ideas from the pics.

Sean

The only time I ever saw any of my chams 'run' was when I had to do some re-arranging in the herp room. I accidentally knocked an empty 90 gallon tank over, and it smashed into a million pieces. The chams ran, but so did every other living thing in the room at the time

If they have to, panthers can move pretty fast. My female loved stick insects, and she'd put on a burst of speed to grab them as soon as I put them in the cage. But none of them ever fell and got hurt. Even if they missed the branch with their feet, they'd still have the tail to grab a hold of a branch. Falling is generally a controlled manouver, done on purpose. Years ago on one of the cham lists (possibly CJ, but I can't be sure right now), falling chams were a big debate item. The final outcome using info from the people who really know, was that any cham that falls accidentally is sick, has muscle or nerve problems, old or possibly dying. A healthy cham has 4 feet and a tail to grab a branch, and generally there are enough branches on the way to the ground that he's bound to connect properly with one.

The outdoor cage is kind of OT for this thread, but since you asked....

I've got one picture in my album showing the outdoor cage.

It's 6 feet tall and just slightly shorter on each side, built over a corkscrew hazel. The leaves are very large and crinkly, great for holding water for drinking, and big enough for an adult panther to hide under. The misting is done with patio misters (sold for cooling humans in summer), producing a fine mist as you can see in this picture:

meow_mix450 · 01-31-04, 12:56 PM

sean, im not trying to pick on anyone here, this is just my opinon lol, what im trying to say is that a little panther or veilded should live in a smaller cage, and no bigger then 4 feet. Like choriona said bigger the cage, more it needs, like he would get dehydrated faster. Thats all im trying to say. but if you get a 6 feet cage for a little guy, its gonna quite hard to find the panther if self, and let alone finding its food....thats just in my opinon, im not against yours, in anyway

Dragndrop that is a very very nice cage, i love it

Meow

Sean Day · 01-31-04, 01:05 PM

Meow
I didn't think you were trying to pick on anyone LOL. I just think there isn't much of a difference husbandry wise between a 4 or 6 foot cage. I also think if it can find food in a 4 foot well then why not a 6. I am always willing to change my opinion which is why I asked.

Hilde
Thanks for the pics, kinda thought you may start a new thread LOL. They already have me thinking of summer projects.

Sean

meow_mix450 · 01-31-04, 01:15 PM

lol srry, its just so hard these days wut people mean.

Meow

Collide · 01-31-04, 03:53 PM

I have used a smaller inclosure in the past for babies and the one and only reasion i did this was to keep the little crix in the cage. I do not think that a little guy in a big cage could get dehydrated, babies tend to be heavy drinker and will lap up all the water they can get, so as long as they are getting watered they are great. I raised 2 batches of baby veilds in a large screened enclosure and was very happy with the results.

Aslo Like gino and sean said they wont get harmed if they fall, they ribs are made of cartalige not bone for this reasion.

I think your babie will be very happy in that big cage!

K1LOS · 01-31-04, 11:39 PM

Thanks for all the info everyone, i have decided to go ahead with the large cage. I think with a little more effort on my part i will be able to provide a nicer home for the little guy. I am having trouble with my humidity. 30% is my norm 8( . obviously it will go up after i mist, but that only lasts like a 1/2 hr. I will start this topic in a new thread though! thanks again

K!LOS

dank7oo · 02-01-04, 09:09 PM

Take a look at E-zine. They have proper care for young chameleons. Don't just beleive me or anything when I say stuff

Jason

tHeGiNo · 02-01-04, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Take a look at E-zine. They have proper care for young chameleons. Don't just beleive me or anything when I say stuff

I think it was made quite clear that falling isnt too large of a risk with chameleons. Very valid points were made: ribs are made of cartilage, falling is one of their natural defense mechanisms, they have prehensile tails which assists them greatly for this exact reason, etc. I think it is more of an issue that you need to take things you read with a grain of salt, and that not all caresheets are right.

With lots of foliage and with a substrate, I can guarantee your chameleon will be fine. Falling is DEFINITELY not a certain death, I hope E-Zine didn't say that as well. I think this goes to show that experience is much more valuable then regurging other peoples information. I don't mean to be rude, but it demonstrates how caresheets are not always right. I mean I could post here and say that chameleons are snakes, but that doesn't make it true.

dank7oo · 02-02-04, 07:36 AM

E-zine says a nursery is essential for the proper care of young chameleons.

Jason

tHeGiNo · 02-02-04, 08:44 AM

This is a direct quote from AdCham (E-Zine):

Quote:

An appropriate sized cage for neonates would be approximately 24" x 16" x 16" or smaller. Too large a cage makes it difficult for the babies to find their food.

Firstly, I do not see anywhere where it says a smaller cage is essential for the proper care of young chameleons. All it says is a smaller cage allows for the babies to find the insects easier. With the proper precautions, this wont be an issue. As I mentioned, they have areas a lot bigger then two feet in the wild. Also keep in mind that the caresheet in question is written generic for all chameleon species. A two foot tall cage is a lot bigger for a Brookesia minima newborn as to a Chamaeleo calyptratus.

This is why it important not to quote caresheets. You often find items exaggerated a great deal, such as falling from a large cage is a certain death, and small caging for neonates is essential.

dank7oo · 02-02-04, 04:24 PM

It still says the proper size cage for a neonate is ... and the dimentions. I wouldn't risk it, but I suppose it is your $200.00

tHeGiNo · 02-03-04, 05:08 PM

Hey, I am sorry but if you don't understand what we have been telling you, I won't bother. And I still don't think you are getting my point. The care sheet is generic. I am not saying you have to use a large cage, I am saying a small cage is not mandatory, and that a fall does not mean death, and that falling isn't that common in the first place.

But if you see online caresheets as the one and only way to do things, then thats fine too. Especially a single caresheet directed at every single species of chameleon. Thats like telling me its fine to keep a full grown eight foot boa constrictor in a two foot cage with sand, because thats what Kenyan Sand Boas need. If you hadn't noticed, the only reason it suggests using a smaller cage for neonates is to ensure they are eating. Which shouldn't be a problem anyhow.

Sean Day · 02-03-04, 05:30 PM

It really doesn't matter what e zine says. I think enough people have proved with their own experience that it can be done safely and your cham can thrive.