Rattlesnake Pics from Summer 2003 - Page 2

emroul · 01-27-04, 06:23 PM

And like I said, we CAN'T sell them. Besides, I do it purely for the love of the animal.

Whether people think it's "cruel", or just about about money, I don't think it is, so...

Jennifer

crocdoc · 01-27-04, 08:01 PM

weird laws. They allow you to collect native species but don't allow you to exchange CB individuals of native species?

Seems a bit bass ackwards to me. They should allow the exchange of CB individuals and stop the capture of wild ones (once there are enough CB animals around). The keepers AND the wild populations will benefit.

emroul · 01-27-04, 08:05 PM

Yup. Weird laws. But whatta you do?

Jennifer

crocdoc · 01-27-04, 08:37 PM

perhaps if enough keepers organised to petition the wildlife authorities (it is for the benefit of the wildlife, after all) you could have those laws changed. We used to have all out bans on captive reptiles here (NSW, Australia), with the exception of nine common species. Eventually that got changed, a licencing system was put in place and now a large number of species can be kept. The two important rules are:

1. they must be CB
2. they can't be sold commercially, only privately (ie no reptiles in petshops, no ads in magazines). Breeders tend to sell all of their animals through online hobbyist websites, herp society newsletters and word of mouth.

First time reptile keepers can get a licence without difficulty, just a matter of sending money in and waiting. To keep more difficult or venomous species, however, a higher level of licence is required and some proof of experience is necessary (having a basic licence for a minimum time period, proven ability to deal with venomous etc). It probably sounds restrictive and prohibitive to many of you, but it is allowing the herp hobby to grow in leaps and bounds.

There are rorts to the system, of course, but overall it works quite well. Most people prefer CB over wild caught, anyway, for they adapt more easily to captivity and breed more readily. Best of all, there is no need to keep taking wild ones out of their habitat.

ClarkC · 01-27-04, 08:57 PM

Second if you think you can get herpers together to petition anything. You might
as well stick to the lotto. LOL

crocdoc · 01-27-04, 09:27 PM

That was constructive.

Perhaps if people bred a few of the local species they could 'gift' the offspring to other keepers in exchange for other reptiles they wanted/needed. Just a suggestion.

brandi · 01-28-04, 03:14 PM

actually, you CAN gift natives, but keeping natives at all is frowned uppon. You just cannot buy, sell, trade, any WC animal OR its offspring. But we have some truly fantastic herps in AZ, and none of the spp Jennifer collected are threatened in any way. she also (unlike a lot of folks) seems to have half a clue what she's doing. nobody likes to see an animal taken from the wild, but private collecting, especially by someone like Jen, is not a problem. Also, we can't jsut go and grab anything, we first have to buy a hunting/fishing license (44$USD) and there are strict bag limits on what we can collect.

btw, where did you find those tigers? they are gorgeous!!! I want to come see!!! Missed you at the meeting last night. We need to go herping soon!

B~

emroul · 01-28-04, 05:01 PM

Hey Brandi, thanks for the comments.

Those Tigers are found around Arizona..hehe...No specific spot mentioned, but thank you for the compliment on him. I didn't make it to the meeting. My car is giving me loads of unwanted trouble

, so I'll probably be there next time. Did Dr. Funk speak last night?

Jennifer

crocdoc · 01-28-04, 05:08 PM

I wasn't suggesting that any were threatened in any way, but I know from experience how quickly local extinctions occur around population centres when reptiles become popular and the hobby increases. In other words, if you lived in a city in Arizona, in time you'd have to go further and further out of town to see (or collect) wild reptiles. The bag limits don't determine where the animals can be collected (other than outside of national parks, I presume) and for those herpers living in cities, it is easiest to collect nearby than further away.

Hey, in the end it doesn't really bother me. In fact, it doesn't have anything to do with me, for I don't live in Arizona and if I were to go there to view wild reptiles I'd probably head far away from urban centres, anyway.

brandi · 01-30-04, 11:46 PM

you know, for all the finger wagging people do over collecting a wild snake... I would rather see it in Jennifer's house, well fed and cared for, than shot or driven over by the next ignorant person to come along. (I'm not bashing hunters either, i've been hunting in AZ almost as long as I could walk) But in this state the posession regulations for C. atrox are "four (4) live and unlimmited dead." and you'l notice Jen didn't say where she found these animals, but i'll bet you she wasn't anywhere near a city. nor is she grabbing animals and running across the boarder to Californina and selling them. and frankly, i'm sick and tired everyone giving keepers grief because "you MUSTN'T touch Nature!!!" over collecting is uncool, but there's room for private collections. i guess the long and short of this is SKATEBOARDING IS NOT A CRIME. peace out yall, props to ya jen!

crocdoc · 01-31-04, 05:50 AM

no one was pointing fingers at anyone. I am simply a big believer in captive bred animals rather than wild caught. If it is okay for one person to collect some for their collection, it is okay for the next, and the next, and the next and soon it does become an issue.

As far as roadkills and snakes being shot, it's a nice thought that the ones being taken home by people are being saved from certain death. However, the people that shoot them or drive over them don't decide to kill four fewer because someone has taken four home to keep. The ones being kept just add to the number being removed from the population already through being driven over and shooting.

This isn't a problem if the numbers are monitored and kept to a reasonable level, but even though Jen may not take them from near where she lives that's not to say that all of the other people out there with permits show the same consideration.

Once again, it isn't my local herp population, so it really doesn't affect my herping (ie whether or not I see any in the wild) so do as you please. I'm not asking anyone to defend themselves, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I am just stating a personal opinion.

Dozer · 01-31-04, 11:54 PM

i didn't mention you , nor did i mention arizona or anythin', all i did was say somethin' about people who take animals outta the wild to sell them to make profit, and in their cases, takin' animals out of the wild is about da money

JD@reptiles · 02-12-04, 06:03 PM

but in this case it isn't about the money. its about the love of the reptiles and the strange laws.

ClarkC · 02-13-04, 11:42 PM

This subject has been discussed to death. The herps found road cruising are like
less than 1% of the population in that given area. If you own any reptiles than you have supported the very problem (wild collected reptiles) that you are
complaining about. And at least with the native herps. It's about the love of the
herps and the hobby. Not the money!! And last. The people that herp in Arizona
for there own collections are very carefull how they collect the herps. In the Import world they are paying natives very little to collect snakes and they are
just grabbing them with tongs and putting them in bags as fast as they can.
Sometimes 8,10, or more in one bag. It's not unusual for Imports to come in with 30% dead. So if you own a exotic reptile cb or not. Than you have supported
this kind of activitiy. And yes I own exotics too. But I'm not the one talking smack
about field collecting.

crocdoc · 02-14-04, 02:09 AM

hmmm.. who said anything about exotics and the number of imports dying? That's not really what this discussion is about.

For what it is worth, I own CB natives, nothing else. It's the law here in Australia.

If you'd been here through the entire conversation, Clark, you'd know that I am not talking about endangering a species by collecting. I'm referring to local extinction. I live in a large city (around 5 million people) with a lot of herpers. Even though collecting species A would only affect a tiny proportion of that species' total number, if it were okay for everyone with an interest in reptiles to collect species A you'd soon find it impossible to find one within easy reach of any city. Personally, I like that I can go out in the bush, not far from where I live, and see wild reptiles. That would change quickly with legal collecting. You can quote all the percentages and numbers you want, but I have been to places (including places in the US) that have been 'herped out'. It sucks.