The Big Question: Sand vs Everything Else - Page 2

manville · 01-14-04, 06:33 PM

I use sand and i think it is good because it is the most natural and most of them live in sand not special kind of stuff you guys buy...ive been using sand for quite a long time and none of my lizards of geckos die yet...so there is no proof that sand is bad...i think sand is good...natural looking..

Greg West · 01-15-04, 02:36 AM

That is nice that you think that because the sand looks nice, and is plain that it works for you. It may work for you, but that doesn't mean that sand isn't building up in your beardies digestive system. You may or may not ever have a problem, but in my mind I wont take that risk. Bearded dragons do not really live on sand, and they don't come from a desert. Most of the areas from what I understand is a dry area, but not that sandy

"Australia has very little sandy desert country. Most of our dry country is low bushes and hard baked earth, or stony plains of laterite, limestone or sandstone. "http://coloherp.org/cb-news/archive/nature/ozdragon.php

Its up to you what you want to keep your dragon(s) on but you should always do whats best for your dragon.

Also there is proof that dragons should not be kept on sand, but it may not be a problem with every dragon, but why risk it if you don't have to.

Greg West
Cornelsworld Terrariums

Bighead · 01-15-04, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by manville
I use sand and i think it is good because it is the most natural and most of them live in sand not special kind of stuff you guys buy...ive been using sand for quite a long time and none of my lizards of geckos die yet...so there is no proof that sand is bad...i think sand is good...natural looking..

My goodness... you really need to look through these forums.
1) It may be natural looking, but it's not natural. They don't live on loose sand.
2) Because your lizards haven't died yet, doesn't mean they won't. They are very likely getting slowly impacted over the years.
3) There is tons of proof and tons of experiences from other owners about their beardies getting impacted and dying.

Why in the world would you take a risk like that? Just because it looks nicer to you?

Jawz · 01-15-04, 07:35 AM

ok not a huge sand supporter but what if u fed a cricketless diet... there is very little chance the beardie would eat sand because everything is fed in bowls. They could track sand into the bowls and onto the food but not that much id think. Comments?

Dragon_Slave · 01-15-04, 07:39 AM

Ok... now, take what manville said and put it in perspective as sand being pinkies. I know this is a totally different thread, but think as the grains of sand being pinky bones, it builds up in the bearded dragons systems and can and will eventually cause an impaction, which is capable of killing your dragon.

I don't understand what is so hard about realizing that sand and pinkies are bad for dragons. *sigh*

Sean Day · 01-15-04, 11:20 AM

I have never been to Australia but I would assume be it hard packed, bushes, lime stone or whatever there would be plenty of sand particles, dust and dirt to tongue flick.

drewlowe · 01-15-04, 12:31 PM

I'm sooooo tired of debating every week on a different thread about sand.

These beardies we have in captavity are OUR own resposibility. It's our job to provide them with the correct care that they deserve. Captive beardies should out live thier wild cousins. Because, we try to take anything that's harmful to them away. Can a beardie that is "free" (living in thier natural enviroment) die of impactation? Sure they can. But why would you want to risk that for your own beardie.

Sean Day · 01-15-04, 03:07 PM

I am not saying sand is a good or bad substrate for beardies, I don't even keep them.

I just don't think sand is bad because it is sand. I don't believe they eat it because they can. I do believe (from my own experience) that a healthy herp will pass small amounts from tongue flicking.
Example a newb comes on here and says my whatever is impacted. Within minutes you have people saying of course it is you have it on sand. So they change substrate and everything is fixed? The reptile may live but is it really thriving?
I just think people should look a little harder at their husbandry as a whole rather then just throwing the sand out and think everything is fixed.

Bighead · 01-16-04, 12:40 AM

With all do respect, it appears that you have nothing to back this up. I used to have the exact same opinion. What it all boils down to for me is that if there is sand in the enclosure, your beardie WILL ingest a certain amount, large or small. Sand can and does cause impaction. This is the case when beardies have some sand, or all sand as a substrate. I doubt that EVERY beardie that has sand as a substrate will eventually die as a result, but the FACT is, SOME DO. I don't know how large or small of a risk that is, and I'm not sure anybody does, but I am not willing to risk it with mine. It is up to you regarding yours. Best of luck.

drewlowe · 01-16-04, 12:54 AM

Big Head, well said.

manville · 01-16-04, 01:49 AM

hey man guess what i dont have a beardie i am talking about my lizards...sorry aboutt he confusion...i do not believe that beardies live in nice and proper environment..there are lots of little small particle out there they may ingest..i agree with you guys saying the sand could be bad but st the same time i am not having any problems at all having my lizards and geckos having sand as their substrate...I agree with all of you guys though..i am not disagreeing with you ppl..

Bighead · 01-16-04, 04:48 AM

You're right. In the wild they don't live in sterile and safe conditions, but as drewlove pointed out above, captive beardies live longer lives than wild ones. In my opinion, there is no reason to risk shortening the life of a beardie because they have shorter lives in the wild.

If you weren't debating about sand as a substrate for beardies than you should be in the leopard gecko forum, and guess what: it goes the same for leopard geckos and fat tails (if one of those is what you have). Here is the last thread about substrates in there: http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showt...threadid=33099

The fact that you have never had a lizard die means only that you haven't been keeping herps as long as 90% of the people using this forum. If you have had them die, even if you had them for a long time, you probably haven't done a necropsy to reveal the cause of death. You have far less proof that sand doesn't cause impaction than anybody here has that it does.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but for me, sand will never be an option. Again, best of luck with whatever you choose.

Dragon_Slave · 01-16-04, 10:58 AM

I wish I could find that post of Eyespy's. The one with the picture of the baby beardie next to a cup of sand that she removed from his stomach. It was the most horrid thing I'd ever seen, and why anyone would take that chance is crazy.

As far as the land in Australia goes, it is HARD, COMPACT DIRT. It is not loose sand like you'd find on a beach. And I agree with Bighead... I would NOT risk my dragons life just because sand is cheap and easy to clean. So are papertowels.

Sean Day · 01-16-04, 11:12 AM

I don't really think you are getting what I am trying to say, which is my fault. What I am trying to say is question the husbandry advice others give you. This applies to anything you keep.

Quote:

if there is sand in the enclosure, your beardie WILL ingest a certain amount, large or small

I agree fully

Quote:

3) There is tons of proof and tons of experiences from other owners about their beardies getting impacted and dying

Just because you can have a wackload of people quoting eyespy doesn't necessarily mean it is good advice. Don't get me wrong I find eyespys posts very informative, but when she posts it she can answer the follow up questions. Look through these forums and you will see most impactions where from inexperienced keepers. Ask the ones against sand and I think you will be surprised how many are talking from experience.

Again I am not saying it is good or bad. I am saying people should stand back and take a look at their husbandry as whole when a problem occurs.

Sorry to thegino for taking this away from what he really wanted to enquire about. I will now go back to lurker mode and try to avoid all the one sided sand debates.

Bighead · 01-16-04, 02:38 PM

Let me ask you again- what proof do you have that it doesn't cause impaction? Any?
If there is some proof that sand has caused impaction, whether it's one out of five beardies or one out of 500, there is no reason to take that risk.
You are right, we all need to look at our husbandry as a whole. If there is anything we can do to (even potentially) extend the qualty and length of our animals' lives, we should do it.

P.S. If you think eyespy is the only one who has owned or seen a herp die from impaction first hand, you are sorely mistaken. I hope you're not the next one to experience it.