Yet another example of why not to feed live...

Originally posted by peregrinefalcon
Then I wish you and your ball python the best of luck! Just wondering, have you tried just stunning the mouse so it is still alive? If not maybe you should try that.
Adam

I'll try that. Thanks for the tip.

[Zoe]

Naara, please don't take offense to this but if you haven't even tried stunned prey you probably haven't tried a lot of the other methods that exist out there to convert your snakes to live. If you have healthy ball pythons with a good feeding response they WILL take dead. I strongly encourage you to read those two articles I gave you. They provide counter-arguments and methods of converting that work 98% of the time (probably 99.9% of the time when used on healthy animals).

Zoe

[Linds]

Poor thing. Saw something similar the other day. I was just asked to go check out a rescue a friend aquired... 5' boa with its tail from vent to tip totally gnawed... didn't look like tail anymore... looked like dried up raw bacon

Originally posted by depressor86

my blood got bit my a mouse....

never i mean NEVER left a LIVE mouse un attended!!!!! "

I think that's a bunch of BS personally... although injuries can easily occur while watching, that injury isn't a quick bite in the wrong spot, its been gnawed on for some time to get to that degree......

Originally posted by Zoe
Naara, please don't take offense to this but if you haven't even tried stunned prey you probably haven't tried a lot of the other methods that exist out there to convert your snakes to live. If you have healthy ball pythons with a good feeding response they WILL take dead. I strongly encourage you to read those two articles I gave you. They provide counter-arguments and methods of converting that work 98% of the time (probably 99.9% of the time when used on healthy animals).

Zoe

He won't take dead prey!!! How many times must I repeat myself? I'm really getting tired of everyone telling me how to feed him. I know you only want to give good advise but I'm working on him for a long time and I know him inside out. I tried everything (even stunning but I was very tired yesterday and didn't have the energy to go into that discussion all over again since I've already told that I tried everything. Sorry that I did that, I gave you the wrong impression). I got him to take dead once but then he pushed so hard on it that it broke and he got all the mouse intestings over him. That scared him so much that he never touches anything that doesn't look very alive any more.

But besides of me taking care of my snakes the story here was all about the photo of that poor snake (and that's the only thing I reacted on because I know (I learned it already in school, had a veterinarian education) that feeding is always a point of, unfortunately, endless discussions). Whatever your opinion is about feeding dead or live the point is that this snake has been left alone with the mouse. As Linds also said, this isn't a quick bite during feeding! This had to take a lot more then a few seconds.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Beautiful snake, sorry misfortune.. I must ask however, how did it die from tail wounds? I couldn't see any other marks that showed that a mouse took a bite out of besides the tail. Maybe because of the flash? Is there a story?

[Emily-Fisher]

Well then maybe it's about he time he learns how to!!! There are several easy ways.

1. Have you tried scenting a mouse? Or just cut open the dead mouse's head and let some brain matter show. At the store, no snake has a problem eating scented mice.
2. Stun the mouse!! What I do for problematic feeders is I take a mouse, hold it by the tail and wack it's head against an edge. The mouse is still twitching its leg so quickly through it in front of the snake's head and right away, he will eat it. Each time, hit the mouse harder until finally at one feeding, the mouse is dead. The snake will be so used to eating mice that are barely moving that he might not even notice that the last one is dead!! I know, this method is really torturing the mouse but what can I say? It worked for my corn and now he eats dead with no problem!
3. Dangle the dead mouse in front of the snake's face. it will look like the mouse is moving therefor the snake will probably snatch it up right away.

Originally posted by Emily-Fisher
Well then maybe it's about he time he learns how to!!! There are several easy ways.

1. Have you tried scenting a mouse? Or just cut open the dead mouse's head and let some brain matter show. At the store, no snake has a problem eating scented mice.
2. Stun the mouse!! What I do for problematic feeders is I take a mouse, hold it by the tail and wack it's head against an edge. The mouse is still twitching its leg so quickly through it in front of the snake's head and right away, he will eat it. Each time, hit the mouse harder until finally at one feeding, the mouse is dead. The snake will be so used to eating mice that are barely moving that he might not even notice that the last one is dead!! I know, this method is really torturing the mouse but what can I say? It worked for my corn and now he eats dead with no problem!
3. Dangle the dead mouse in front of the snake's face. it will look like the mouse is moving therefor the snake will probably snatch it up right away.

Tried it. Didn't work.

[Scales Zoo]

One method that has worked in the past on ball pythons is to remove the water for at least a couple of days. Then offer a wet f/t rodent, a little smaller than what he would normally eat. What happens is the snake is thirsty, and will try to suck up as much water off the thawed rodent as he can. If the prey is somewhat small, they will often open up and actually eat it in their attempt to drink. I cannot guarantee it will work, but it is worth a try. I use this trick on all stubborn feeders with much success.
Our BP Kirby had gone 18 months without eating anything, even live. The former owner operated a store and knew what he was doing, and had tried live, stunned p/k and f/t mice, rats, gerbils, degus and every other type of rodent prey he could find. In exasperation he sent the snake to our rescue as he was certain it was going to die.

[Zoe]

Naara - it probably won't try the first time. If you just give up and throw in a mice, then of course he'll never switch. If you parents had offered you a humburger everytime you wouldn't eat you veggies, you'd never eat your veggies.

I know you're sick of hearing this but I find it very hard to believe that you've correctly tried every method over a correct time period and that nothing has worked. You said he took dead once... well you know he can! Just because he broke it I doubt it scared him. If it did, he's forgotten by now.

If he's got decent weight on, try a dead rat (using different methods every time) every week, but don't feed him a live one if he doesn't eat a dead one. He won't starve to death in a few weeks (I am currently starving my IJs to take rats, they've been a couple months without food and are fine) and imagine not having to deal with such a hassle? You wouldn't have to feed mice anymore, you could feed rats (he's an adult, right?).

You seem to adopting a non-changing attitude, as in "he'll only take live, so I'm not going to put much effort into changing" (no worries I went through that until I got sick of feeding my carpets 10 mice a week!)

I've copied a couple paragraphs for that article I posted in hopes you'll read them here and try them out. If your BP is healthy, it may take a while, but there is no reason that it will never switch to dead.

Hold the mouse or rat by the back, below the neck, high on the spine. "Dangling" by the tail is less effective, and gives poor "aim". If the snake is puzzled by the stillness of the prey item, give it a little wiggle, a little movement, and it will become quite enticing.

Ball pythons, on the other hand, are extremely head shy, and it is best not to touch the snake, but instead hold the mouse completely still in front of it’s nose. A Ball python may take it’s time, but it will strike (and often miss, they seem to have the WORST aim in the reptile kingdom).

Go with feeders that are 50-60% of the regular weekly size, one live (ugh!) or fresh killed, and one thawed. Feed your regular meal first, and then pay attention. A smaller prey item should be consumed pretty quickly (that’s the "prime"), and that is when you pounce. Immediately after the snake has swallowed the first item (allow for that full "get in the stomach" stretch), offer the thawed rodent to your snake. Snakes are instinctive feeders, and it is hard for the animal to shut off the triggered feeding response. Your animal should snap up the second item with gusto.

Other methods are braining, chicken broth scenting, stunning... the list really goes on and on.

Zoe

[marisa]

Your BP refuses partially killed rodents as well?

As in....you whack one on a hard surface hard enough to partially disable it but not kill it all the way....I find it hard to believe he would refuse this as he wouldn't know the differance, also after he accepts this, you are soooo much closer to him accteping fresh kills and then F/T. As this is the SAME as live, but not live. Yes this also presents a danger of the mouse bitting but full healthy live mice are even worse.

Marisa

[Ed_r]

If you had a REAL oddbal seldom kept in captivity snake I could possibly agree with feeding live , BUT there is no Ball Python, or Boa, or cornsnake. That You can not get to eat frozen thawed. I have 2 w/c Ball pythons that ar big enough but would only EASILY eat live rats. Easily is the key word. They would not touch it if it was stunned, or fresh killed. After a long hunger strike. I got worried and offerred a f/t mouse(all i had in small prey was f/t. Now a snake that would Never EVER take a f/t rat , absolutely crushed this f/t mouse. Now it eats 3 Jumbo f/t mice a week.

They ALL can be switched!!!

One real good trick I have used and it works really good. Take the f/t mouse and on hemostats, grab it on the nape of the neck, and bounce it around the cage like its walking around. Brought mine around instantly. Also when doing this start the prey item far away from the snake. Other wise if you go in right in front of it you will spook the snake and it wont eat. But if you start further away the snake will get very curious. It's almost like teasing a cat with a string.
Your notice the same head movements. When it starts to show interest , take the mouse further away, Now the snake gets antsy, so in another time close or 2 WHAM!!!.

Just remember, You CANNOT train a snake. You have to train yourself to the snakes requirements. You have made a commitment to this snake to give it the best care. f/t IS the best care. In the wild if they come upon a freshly dead prey item they WILL eat it.

Watching your snake while you feed live will do no good.
2 scenarios.
1) You watch the snake mouse gets close to the snake, doesnt bite( but your real nervouse it will) the mouse keeps doing this without a bite,. you think the mouse is tame and wont bite. you let your guard down and then the mouse bites the snake, and your not ready. Ooops.

2) Your snake is real hungry and an agressive feeder, you still watch to be "safe" Snake bites and constricts. As we all know the mouse/rat does not die for a good 15-45 seconds. Sometimes lots of struggling. While in the coils the prey item deside to take one final attempt at life and start biting the snake while in the coils. What do you do? Take a blunt object and try to land a killing blow to the head of the prey item, and hope not to miss and hit your snake, breaking its ribs and maybe spine? Or do you grab the snake and try to unravell a very hungry snake thats only mindset is to eat and eat NOW. You will get bit Bad, the snake will be soo stressed from you trying to unravel it, The prey item will keep biting, since your actually loosening the coils of the snake. Big ooops and you just watched and help it to happen.

Then follows the post My snake gt bit by a mouse/rat, or worse "my snake got killed today."

If you love the animal you will find a way to feed it f/t. YES there is always a way. ALWAYS!!!

Sorry for my rant, Just hard to handle seeing people not see the big picture of feeding live, and saying "Oh this won't happen to me" Yes it will it's a matter of time.

Pfff, this will be my last post in this topic because we just don't get any further.
You all seem to doubt my capability so grab a plane, get to Holland and try it yourself!!!
I've tried to talk it over with you guys but I'm sick of being made into a person who doesn't seem to take care of her snakes in the right way.

Good day to you all, I'm going somewhere where they respect each other instead of simply ventilate their opinion as the only good way.

[Ed_r]

Send me a ticket.

No One disrespected you. YOu are the one unwilling to try things for the safety of your animals. Anyone that will tell you what you want to hear is doing you no help. Geeee all these people said i was ok to feed live and yet this rat bit my snake....

[Zoe]

Naara, I'd love an opportunity to take your BPs for a month or two. I'd guarantee they'd be on f/t by the time they got back to you.

It's unfortunate that you think that we're disrespecting you, because no one is. We are simply interested in the best interest of the snake and find it VERY unlikely that you've tried everything correctly and that nothing has worked.

I mean, first you said you tried everything, but you hadn't even tried stunned! I know you said you already did it but

I'll try that. Thanks for the tip.

DOESN'T sound like it. I also doubt you've read the articles i send, or giving much thought to them if you have.

I also see a snake getting bitten in the future, and am very sorry for your BPs. You may think that nothing will happen, that because you're watching nothing will go wrong, but you're wrong. So much can! It takes a second for a snake to be blinded or seriously injured, and lets face it, BPs don't have the best aim and don't always grab the prey correctly.

I hope you can learn to accept this advice and save your ball pythons some future pain and injury. As previously stated, none of this was meant to offend or disrespect.

ventilate their opinion as the only good way.

This isn't OPINION, it's FACT! Do you actually think it's better to feed live than dead???\

[peregrinefalcon]

KrokadilyanGuy3, I don't know the whole story but it could have died from blood loss, infection, not being able to remove waste properly (it looks like it was chewed past the vent) or many other things. Whatever happened I'm sure it was very painful
Adam