how long to leave lights on

[sdiamond808]

Thanks guys

[WolfMum13]

Actually that is a common and widespread fact that is incorrect. Current research shows that it aides in immune system, Vitamin D3 which aides in calcium,and as well as colorization for they’re vision. So yes do they NEED it like water, no, but it benefits the snakes. A lot of this stems from the idea that most species are nocturnal to they don’t see sun etc. Which also is in accurate because yes as stated above nocturnal animals do come out and bask during the day occasionally. Better to do research and look at your specific species rather than state a blanket idea over all species.

[Andy_G]

I appreciate the information and do not disregard it and Inwill look into it when time permits. I will have to consider this when answering this question in the future, but when I consistently see snakes live decades in captivity without any UV being offered it may be a hard thought pattern to break. Thanks again for all of that.

[craigafrechette]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

I appreciate the information and do not disregard it and Inwill look into it when time permits. I will have to consider this when answering this question in the future, but when I consistently see snakes live decades in captivity without any UV being offered it may be a hard thought pattern to break. Thanks again for all of that.

I couldn't agree more

[Roman]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

I appreciate the information and do not disregard it and Inwill look into it when time permits. I will have to consider this when answering this question in the future, but when I consistently see snakes live decades in captivity without any UV being offered it may be a hard thought pattern to break. Thanks again for all of that.

I think it is a just one of those things we all “know”. It is repeated in most care guides that snakes don’t need UVB since they get their D3 from their food. Results from research suggesting something different have not (yet) found their way into the standard care guides. Since snakes are hardy enough to survive decades without supplemental UVB nobody questions the old dogma. Only if you actually read the new papers and see the difference in blood concentration with and without supplemental UVB light you start to think.

That’s why Fran Baines, Roman Muryns and others try to spread the information and why I try to argue in favor for using it here in the forum, not to argue for arguments sake but to spread the word and help to improve the way we keep our animals.

[craigafrechette]

Originally Posted by Roman

I think it is a just one of those things we all “know”. It is repeated in most care guides that snakes don’t need UVB since they get their D3 from their food. Results from research suggesting something different have not (yet) found their way into the standard care guides. Since snakes are hardy enough to survive decades without supplemental UVB nobody questions the old dogma. Only if you actually read the new papers and see the difference in blood concentration with and without supplemental UVB light you start to think.

That’s why Fran Baines, Roman Muryns and others try to spread the information and why I try to argue in favor for using it here in the forum, not to argue for arguments sake but to spread the word and help to improve the way we keep our animals.

Thank you, good sir. I've got some reading to do.

[Andy_G]

Without looking at the papers, it makes me wonder- although there is measurable difference in the level of D3 present between UVB being offered and not being offered, and if the snakes still survive for decades without it, including no perceivable detriment in regards to reproduction, does the higher level of D3 offer any health advantages, or have they evolved to operate fine without it being present? What method was used to decipher what "dangerously low" would be, and/or are there any quantitative health concern that would result from these "dangerously low" levels? Would the higher D3 levels be something that the body can utilize or produce any measurable health term benefit for the captive, either short term or long term, or have there been studies on that specifically as of yet? Just some questions that I hope the information you are going to send me will answer. If not...it would be hard to change my position to state that they "need" it after all as that would make the whole topic kind of null in my opinion. I am very much looking forward to learning more once you send me this information Roman. I appreciate that you are doing so.

[Roman]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

Without looking at the papers, it makes me wonder- although there is measurable difference in the level of D3 present between UVB being offered and not being offered, and if the snakes still survive for decades without it, including no perceivable detriment in regards to reproduction, does the higher level of D3 offer any health advantages, or have they evolved to operate fine without it being present? What method was used to decipher what "dangerously low" would be, and/or are there any quantitative health concern that would result from these "dangerously low" levels? Would the higher D3 levels be something that the body can utilize or produce any measurable health term benefit for the captive, either short term or long term, or have there been studies on that specifically as of yet? [...]

Andy: I was talking to Dr. Frances Baines and Roman Muryns during a conference in May for (literally) hours about this whole topic lighting and it’s consequences for our reptiles. That was when she mentioned this “dangerously low concentration” in the blood samples she found. So I don’t know what concentration of D3 would actually be harmful. But just to give you a better understanding whom we are talking about I just post her speaker profile from the upcoming event in the US in September (which is the first conference of the AHH held in the US and the spin-off of the event I participated in May) -->https://www.ahhconferences.com/ If you can make it to this event it will be most likely an even better “eye-opener” for you!

“Dr Frances M. Baines

Frances qualified from the University of Cambridge School of Veterinary Medicine, “many years ago”. Now retired from veterinary practice, she has spent the last 15 years researching the use of specialist lighting in the husbandry of reptiles, amphibians and more recently, mammals, birds and invertebrates. She is an appointed Advisor to the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquaria (BIAZA) and to the European Association of Zoos and Aquaria (EAZA)’s Animal Welfare Working Group.”

So I suppose it is safe to say that she knows what she is talking about.

Just look at the results. For the corn snakes the plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentration tripled from ca. 63.0 nmol/L to 196 nmol/L within 28 days. For the Burmese pythons it was a six fold increase of 25-OH-D3 concentration on average from 39 to 244 nmol/L within 310 days. Remember, the snakes could chose if they wanted to bask in the UVB light or stay in their hiding places, so this was not a UVB supplementation 24/7 but probably only a few minutes or hours per day and snake. This is the same quote from the study about Burmese pythons:

“25-OH-D3 acts as a hormone and regulates the cell division by directly or indirectly regulating cell cycling and proliferation, differentiation, and even apoptosis. 1,25-OH-D3’s main task is acting as a regulatory mechanism controlling the calcium level in blood serum. Captive reptiles often have imbalanced Ca : P ratios that are likely caused by vitamin D deficiencies, renal disease, or dietary imbalance.”

So a low level of this hormone means bone calcification runs only on a low level, leading to brittle bone structure. A nasty thought would be that this causes no problems for many breeders simply due to the fact that their snakes can’t move around and probably break their bones doing so because of their small shoe boxes they are kept in. (I am talking about large quantity breeders with tiny racks).

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by Roman

Andy: I was talking to Dr. Frances Baines and Roman Muryns during a conference in May for (literally) hours about this whole topic lighting and it’s consequences for our reptiles. That was when she mentioned this “dangerously low concentration” in the blood samples she found. So I don’t know what concentration of D3 would actually be harmful. But just to give you a better understanding whom we are talking about I just post her speaker profile from the upcoming event in the US in September (which is the first conference of the AHH held in the US and the spin-off of the event I participated in May) -->https://www.ahhconferences.com/ If you can make it to this event it will be most likely an even better “eye-opener” for you!

“Dr Frances M. Baines

Frances qualified from the University of Cambridge School of Veterinary Medicine, “many years ago”. Now retired from veterinary practice, she has spent the last 15 years researching the use of specialist lighting in the husbandry of reptiles, amphibians and more recently, mammals, birds and invertebrates. She is an appointed Advisor to the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquaria (BIAZA) and to the European Association of Zoos and Aquaria (EAZA)’s Animal Welfare Working Group.”

So I suppose it is safe to say that she knows what she is talking about.

Just look at the results. For the corn snakes the plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentration tripled from ca. 63.0 nmol/L to 196 nmol/L within 28 days. For the Burmese pythons it was a six fold increase of 25-OH-D3 concentration on average from 39 to 244 nmol/L within 310 days. Remember, the snakes could chose if they wanted to bask in the UVB light or stay in their hiding places, so this was not a UVB supplementation 24/7 but probably only a few minutes or hours per day and snake. This is the same quote from the study about Burmese pythons:

“25-OH-D3 acts as a hormone and regulates the cell division by directly or indirectly regulating cell cycling and proliferation, differentiation, and even apoptosis. 1,25-OH-D3’s main task is acting as a regulatory mechanism controlling the calcium level in blood serum. Captive reptiles often have imbalanced Ca : P ratios that are likely caused by vitamin D deficiencies, renal disease, or dietary imbalance.”

So a low level of this hormone means bone calcification runs only on a low level, leading to brittle bone structure. A nasty thought would be that this causes no problems for many breeders simply due to the fact that their snakes can’t move around and probably break their bones doing so because of their small shoe boxes they are kept in. (I am talking about large quantity breeders with tiny racks).

Thank you once again, Roman. More valuable and legitimate information.