Jungle Carpet Python: Transitioning From Live To Frozen/Thawed

[Gorgon]

Aaron_S - thank you, man -- I appreciate it. Yeah the consensus is that I should be giving her rats so I'm definitely going to start doing that on a weekly basis as well. And yes -- going to try leaving the prey overnight. Thank you for the compliment on her appearance, by the way -- everyone here has helped alleviate my fear of her starving and that means more than I can say. Any thoughts on what my breeder recommended above in my response to MDT? Thank you in advance, Aaron, very much.

[Gorgon]

Cool -- thank you for that confirmation, Aaron_S. And thank you for being a kickass moderator and approving my earlier posts with a quickness. I appreciate everyone's help on here more than words.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Gorgon

Cool -- thank you for that confirmation, Aaron_S. And thank you for being a kickass moderator and approving my earlier posts with a quickness. I appreciate everyone's help on here more than words.

I appreciate the compliment but I am NOT the mod who approves all the posts lol. I can't be bothered and someone else does it. I do the banning/warnings/etc.

[Gorgon]

Yikes -- sorry for the long delay, Aaron_S and sorry for mistaking you for the post-approval guy. I've truly appreciated all the help I've gotten here; it means a great deal.

So, again, thank you everyone. Some updates, however: I waited until 5/26 but then I gave in and fed her 3 live hoppers. The interesting thing was that she started with the first the same way she's been dumb striking the F/Ts: as if she wasn't sure of the thing before her and just kind of wanted it to go away. Hence, this reaffirmed what some of you have been saying, that she just needs to get in the groove, realize the F/T is edible prey, and then go for it. (She ate the successive 2 live ones immediately.)

Then I tried feeding her a rat pup a week ago and, of course, she didn't go for it since I've now reaffirmed her predilection for live. I did the heat lamp thaw for the pup with it on the lid of her small feeding tub and then also tried feeding her in her enclosure and then left it in there overnight. (She didn’t take it.)

I also got a digital scale as per your recommendations. She weighed 135g before the live feeding and then 152g after. I'm assuming that what I need to do is weigh her after her next shed and *then* see if she starts dropping weight. I'm thinking as long as she's not dropping weight, I can keep attempting the F/T feedings starting off with trying it in her enclosure -- and then if she doesn't do it there, try the feeding tub. (In other words, the reverse of what I did a week ago.) Does this sound like the right way to go?

I'm sorry this is so long but I’m just trying to be as detailed as possible. It's been 1 month and 21 days since she last shed and she doesn't yet seem to be going into another. Hence, my pressing question for right now is: do I go ahead with a few more live just to get her over the hump of her next shed and then, after that, do strictly F/T attempts while closely monitoring her weight?

Again, I really appreciate the help I've gotten so far and I'm definitely impressed some of you have dared read all (or at least most) of what I've written. You should have seen how this morning started off: I was handling her a bit and she's so vivacious and sprightly. You can just tell that she feels good -- and to me I have no greater responsibility than to keep her feeling this way.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Gorgon

Yikes -- sorry for the long delay, Aaron_S and sorry for mistaking you for the post-approval guy. I've truly appreciated all the help I've gotten here; it means a great deal.

So, again, thank you everyone. Some updates, however: I waited until 5/26 but then I gave in and fed her 3 live hoppers. The interesting thing was that she started with the first the same way she's been dumb striking the F/Ts: as if she wasn't sure of the thing before her and just kind of wanted it to go away. Hence, this reaffirmed what some of you have been saying, that she just needs to get in the groove, realize the F/T is edible prey, and then go for it. (She ate the successive 2 live ones immediately.)

Then I tried feeding her a rat pup a week ago and, of course, she didn't go for it since I've now reaffirmed her predilection for live. I did the heat lamp thaw for the pup with it on the lid of her small feeding tub and then also tried feeding her in her enclosure and then left it in there overnight. (She didn’t take it.)

I also got a digital scale as per your recommendations. She weighed 135g before the live feeding and then 152g after. I'm assuming that what I need to do is weigh her after her next shed and *then* see if she starts dropping weight. I'm thinking as long as she's not dropping weight, I can keep attempting the F/T feedings starting off with trying it in her enclosure -- and then if she doesn't do it there, try the feeding tub. (In other words, the reverse of what I did a week ago.) Does this sound like the right way to go?

I'm sorry this is so long but I’m just trying to be as detailed as possible. It's been 1 month and 21 days since she last shed and she doesn't yet seem to be going into another. Hence, my pressing question for right now is: do I go ahead with a few more live just to get her over the hump of her next shed and then, after that, do strictly F/T attempts while closely monitoring her weight?

Again, I really appreciate the help I've gotten so far and I'm definitely impressed some of you have dared read all (or at least most) of what I've written. You should have seen how this morning started off: I was handling her a bit and she's so vivacious and sprightly. You can just tell that she feels good -- and to me I have no greater responsibility than to keep her feeling this way.

I'd do that. i'd offer a few live meals and then offer a F/T meal again. Sometimes it takes a bit.

[Scubadiver59]

And for my Dumerils Boa and my Anthill/Pygmy Python...it never worked. My patience did have an end, and I've still got them, but they just won't take f/t.

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'd do that. i'd offer a few live meals and then offer a F/T meal again. Sometimes it takes a bit.

[Gorgon]

Originally Posted by Scubadiver59

And for my Dumerils Boa and my Anthill/Pygmy Python...it never worked. My patience did have an end, and I've still got them, but they just won't take f/t.

That's a trip, Scubadiver59. I hope that's not the case for me because I really don't enjoy this process, that poor mouse *definitely* doesn't enjoy the process, and it's dangerous for my girl even though I monitor the feeding hyperclose. I mean, I know they do this all the time in the wild but snakes also often get bit in the wild and (more than) occasionally die in the wild. Did either your Boa or Python (or both) start to lose weight before you resumed feeding?

[Scubadiver59]

Not so much my juvenile Dumerils but my Anthill did. I've tried off and on, going months w/o feeding, but to no avail. Maybe I'm just too softhearted...

Originally Posted by Gorgon

That's a trip, Scubadiver59. I hope that's not the case for me because I really don't enjoy this process, that poor mouse *definitely* doesn't enjoy the process, and it's dangerous for my girl even though I monitor the feeding hyperclose. I mean, I know they do this all the time in the wild but snakes also often get bit in the wild and (more than) occasionally die in the wild. Did either your Boa or Python (or both) start to lose weight before you resumed feeding?

[Gorgon]

Thank you Aaron. I appreciate it, man.

[Gorgon]

I also wanted to clarify my closing statement earlier. Venomous snakes don't have it easy. No snake has it easy. But venomous serpents do seem to have it perhaps a bit easier than constrictors.

[Gorgon]

Hey there guys -- it's me again. Looking for a bit more help with the ongoing feeding issue(s) but I'll try to be brief.

So she's now a year old and weighs just 165g. She last shed June 26 and it was a good one: almost a single piece. Right after the shed, she weighed 174g. She has not eaten since and I've only been offering her F/T. I've been closely weighing her every week and so the 6 weighings since that shed have gone like this:

6/29 - 174g
7/6 - 169g
7/13 - 169g
7/20 - 165g
7/27 - 165g
8/3 - 165g

So I've been told I need not worry unless she starts to lose 15% - 20% of her body weight. So if we say 82.5% of 174g, then that's 144g. Hence, it's good she's nowhere near that: she still has 20g to go before I start worrying. Also, last check 3 days ago she was still strong and feisty as ever and looked great.

F/T feeding methods I've tried:

[1] In small opaque tub (about 1'³) where I lift off the lid completely and attempt the feed: she's eaten live that way before but never F/T (just does dumb striking)

[2] In large opaque tub (about 2.5'³) where I just partially unconver the lid and hang the prey down with forceps: she ate 3 F/T pinkies that way on 2/2 right when I first got her (she was shipped to me overnight) and though she strikes more confidently there than in the small tub, it's still mostly just dumb striking

[3] Straight in her enclosure: she doesn't seem to like this either, more dumb striking. I also leave the prey in her enclosure overnight. Needless to say, she's never gone for this either.

[4] In a (relatively) small deli cup: no go here at all too

* When I've tried feeding her outside her enclosure, I've kept a couple F/Ts at the top to keep the scent around

* I've tried feeding a range of prey sizes whenever I've attempted feedings: from pinkes to hoppers to rat pups. She seems to prefer the hoppers the most but only marginally

* I've tried 2 methods of thawing: one under a heat lamp for about an hour (being very careful not to overheat) the plastic bag/hot water method. No preference indicated as of yet.

I did make the mistake of attempting feedings every week there for about a month and a half, completely forgetting this was a bad idea. I guess I was just desperate to have her eat, but still -- I realize I shouldn't have done this.

Hence, thus begins the 5 questions I have for you guys:

[1] I last tried to feed her 7/27, so should I try again 8/10 or wait how much longer?

[2] For those 2 weeks she was at 169g and the 3 (so far) she's been at 165g, how is it possible she didn't lose *any* weight over those durations? My digital scale is very accurate and seems to work fine.

[3] Every time I've seen a professional feed a snake (especially a python), they just have those pull-out plastic drawers that they open a bit and then feed using forceps. So since she seems to give the best response when I open the lid just a little on the tub, I bought these opaque (black) plastic drawers that are sized about 1.75'³ and that slide out just like I see professionals use. Granted, when I see professionals attempt a feeding, those snakes actually *live* in those drawers. But I'm thinking if I give her about an hour in there before feeding, she might quickly grow used to the environment and then be ready to feed. Does this sound like a good plan?

[4] I have a guy with a lot of reptile experience with whom I work closely at a local pet store and he said he'd be glad to attempt a feeding or even do an assist. I know I should only resort to this if my girl loses 20% of her weight, but could an assist-feed put her on the track of eating F/T?

[5] Since I've seen a couple people mention this before, is it really true that some snakes may just never go for F/T -- and may starve themselves because of this?

Sorry for the lack of brevity, but I've tried to be as detailed as possible. I really feel badly about all the reading I'm asking you guys to do so please just let me know if I can summarize any parts thereof. Thank you all again in advance for your help.

[ ** I define "dumb striking" as strikes seemingly intended only to remove the offending prey from the snake's immediate area -- not to consume the prey. In other words, strikes apparently meant to frighten without intent to actually constrict. ]

[craigafrechette]

Hey there, I'm kinda late to the party, but felt it was important to chime in here.

Your feeding attempts are all over the place. Different locations, different techniques, different prey. You need to strive for consistency. Right now all the variances are stressing your snake.

You're never going to get anywhere that way. You need to be consistent with your offerings.

Whichever prey item the animal was eating before you brought it home will be your best bet - at least to get started. You can always upsize or transition from there. But getting her eating is obviously priority.

FEED INSIDE THE ENCLOSURE!!!!!!

Using seperate feeding tubs is old school and proven COUNTER PRODUCTIVE over time. There is literally ZERO benefit to feeding in a seperate feeding tub.

Feeding tubs:
A) increase the odds the snake refuses it's meal. Moving the animal = stress. Stress = refusal
B) increase the chances of the snake regurgitating it's meal. Moving the snake after eating = stress. Stress = regurge.
C) increase your chances of being tagged. Snakes remain in feed mode for upwards of 24 hours after eating.

Now, think forward. IF the snake were to accept in a seperate feeding tub....are you really going to want to be moving an 8 foot snake before and after each feeding?

Snakes become creatures of habit. So IF you get her eating in a seperate feeding tub as a juvenile, that may be VERY difficult to break once the animal has some size on her.

That sliding drawer idea is a great way of thinking outside the box, but unfortunately it would have the opposite affect.

At this point, stick to basics. Keep it very simple. Focus on husbandry, no handling the snake at all until it is eating consistently. I highly recommend waiting until the snake has eaten 3 consecutive meals without refusal. If there's a refusal the clock restarts. You don't need to weigh weekly. You'll be able to tell if the snake is losing considerable weight visually.

I can't stress enough, feed inside the enclosure. Keep it simple. Be consistent.

[Gorgon]

Yeah maybe I should have mentioned this ain't my first rodeo.

I had a Jungle Carpet just like this one a few years ago -- as well as 2 Royals -- and they ate *awesome* in a separate tub. So did I just randomly luck out and that was some sort of unique convergence/synchonicity where all the stars aligned perfectly? I never got bit, they never regurgitated. Nada.

I *have* heard people tell me that if you feed in the enclosure regularly, after a few months or so when you stick your hands in there to grab the snake, it could very well trigger a feeding response and it's a great way to get bit. So is that a total lie someone just made up?

Also, I haven't been randomly jumping to different feeding attempts all over the place. Those methods I listed above have been done over a time period of 6 months, ever since I first had the snake.

And I *have* moved an 8-foot to and from a feeding tub in the past. Quite regularly during that time. I'm a big guy. An 8' snake is nowhere near too much for me to handle.

A 13' Burmese might be pushing it a little but yeah, short of that, no worries.

[craigafrechette]

Yeah, feeding tubs USED TO BE common. But like I said, they've been proven counter productive.

I USED TO run my heating equipment without being regulated by a thermostat. Just because I used to doesn't make it the best way now that I've learned. Of course, that was almost 20 years ago, but my point is we learn as we go and as research and experience teaches us to improve.

The cage aggression is 100% myth. I've NEVER ONCE been struck at inside any of my enclosures. My strikes and bites have always come OUTSIDE the enclosure.

As for the variance in prey items and delivery, I'm sure you're not just randomly bouncing from one to the next.
I'm just suggesting sticking to what the animal was eating prior to you taking it home. That will likely be your best bet to get the snake eating consistently.

[Gorgon]

Ok I appreciate the help you're offering and I'll use it, so thank you. A few questions remain though:

[1] I'll make feeding within the enclosure a priority but how soon should I resume my attempts? If I start 8/10, that will only be 2 weeks since I last tried. If that's too soon, how long should I wait?

[2] Since it's been warmer, she's been doing something she hasn't done before: staying in her hide during the day. She used to be strictly arboreal and made great use of the branches in her large enclosure but now she generally comes out of her hide only at night. Hence, could this by why she hasn't lost a single gram in weight over the last 3 weeks?

[3] I think I'm going to stick to hoppers for now (F/T, obviously). They seem a little small for her but she seems to strike more at them than she does pinkes or rat pups. Does this sound like a good plan?

[4] Could an assist-feed (last resort, of course) help put her on the track of eating F/T?

[5] Again, are there some snakes who simply will not accept F/T and will starve themselves because of this?

Thank you, craigafrechette, and everyone else for your help.