Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+discuss

[StevenL]

One, if not my favorite subject in school was math. To this day I still enjoy it. In all of the years I have owned snakes, I have never viewed their care as "rocket science". I have learned through experience to read my snakes and provide for them by "listening" to their actions.

I admire all of your work but quite honestly if I have to put that much thought into feeding my snakes I think I would have calculators as pets, not snakes.

[MichaelRobinson]

I'm not sure that our math is the problem here BallBuster7653. Clearly, English isn't your first language. So, my suggestion is that if you think you have a good feeding guide here then you need to work on grammar so the rest of us can comprehend this. As someone who reads loads of dense AF material, I can tell you that your writing is the issue here. Typos' aren't your problem, your syntax is. I'm not trying to disrespect you, argue, put you down, etc. I understand that English is difficult as a second, third, etc. language but, your writing is incredibly difficult to follow, or as "Phenyx" said, a word problem from hell. (LOL) In my case, I couldn't finish it.
-Would love to read it when it's finished.
p.s. love your passion for snakes.

[BallBuster7653]

Lol ok thanks for the critique everyone. But let’s please look past the grammar and everything for a moment. Is does match up! And see as someone said it’s not this huge equation for me. It’s comes very natural since I’ve used it many years. So I’m not sitting there crunching numbers all the time.

Also about the 217 gram Ball python. First isn’t that kind of heavy for a 2 ft 5 month old. I’m not sure but anyway 36 g a week could be maybe a rat pup every 5 days or adult mouse 25 g every 5 days. Doesn’t need to be exact. That’s where your own judgement has to come in. Maybe go to 1/4 at that point. Ball pythons and other small snakes would go up the fractions by inches maybe a foot unlike the big guys that take long time and big leaps like from 1/4 to 1/5 on a retic would be about from 6 to 9 feet. On a female at least. But thanks for the feedback and I’d snyone has any questions throw em at me. Like maybe tell me some of your adult shakes length and weights and a pic and see if my formula is about what you feed.

[BallBuster7653]

Yea I do have an extreme passion for snakes. Always have I don’t know where it came from. No friends or family will even go near them. Usually I only like to have my one main snake and maybe a pair of breeder ball pythons. So for a while now it’s just me and the boa who is now getting ghostly looking which means it’s tome for soaking and shedding. I like to measure their weight girth length and each feeding down in a small book just to keep record.

But the biggest issue now is.... what should I name him!

[BallBuster7653]

Now that I’m on a real keyboard just wanna post this

Male Suriname red tailed boa:

Newborn to 4ft - 1/3 every 2 weeks.

I feed mine who is 100 grams and 28” about 3 months old an adult mouse 20 grams every week because some are smaller it averages to about 33 g every 2 weeks.

4-5ft- 1/4 every 2 weeks

5-6ft- 1/5 every 2 weeks

6-7ft- 1/7.5 every 2 weeks

7- adult size - 1/10 every 2 weeks

Now figure in there maybe all Suriname males don’t get 8 ft I may have to make the jumps sooner. I don’t want to overfeed. So that’s where you just need to keep record and keep and eye and use your own judgment.

Thanks all for listening to my long babbled misspelled thesis and equations lol. And NObody plagerize this! Don’t let me read it one day on amazon lol.

[bigsnakegirl785]

First of all, I find the mathematical logic of "snakes need X lbs of food per year" to be highly flawed. Their metabolic needs rise and fall throughout the year, depending on temps, breeding, and mostly likely a host of other, invisible (to current knowledge) factors. Also consider even tropical species of animal breed seasonally. This means that wild boas are going to have periods of time where they eat more heavily than the rest of the year, just by simple math of there being so much more, easier-to-capture prey. They will eat a bunch during the warmer, wetter seasons, and less during the cooler, drier seasons. You do not want to feed them like they would eat in the wet season all year round. In captivity, I prefer to hit more of a middle ground, where they will eat moderately most of the year, then heavily right before and right after a fast, and then sparingly or not at all for a short time. I fast my males, and my younger females, but as of right now I still need to determine if fasting is something I want to do for mature breeding females, and will depend on how long between seasons she goes before being bred again, I'm thinking minimum of 1-2 year rest time.

If I do not fast or reduce winter feedings, I don't just continue to pump as much food into them as I can as you're doing...it's simply not sustainable for long-term health. If you feed at the same rate all year round, you really need to be drastically reducing how much you're feeding your boa at one time.

You also don't seem very experienced with this species/genus...is this Suri your first boa? There is a lot of hypotheticals here without any real data, and unnecessary math coming out to an entirely too abundant feeding regimen.

A 4' boa should be closer to 800-1,000+ grams, 452 grams is more of what I'd expect of a 3.5' boa, my 3' male is currently 308 grams. My 4'2" male's last weight was 990 grams, and his heaviest weight was between 1,000 and 1,100, so I expect he'll put on some more weight again with more feedings. My ghost female is 4'+ and she's 830 grams, but is naturally thin-bodied.

I'm not sure if your weights, lengths, or both are off, but your boa is awfully light for his size.

5' at 2 years old is actually rather rapid growth for a boa, not slow. You'd be hard-pressed to get them to grow much faster than that. My feeding regimen is with this sort of growth in mind:

1 year: 2.5'-3'
2 years: 3'-4'
3 years: 4'-5'
4 years: 5'-6'
5-6 years: 6'+

And then the large boa sizes of 7'-8' at 6+ years old, and even longer for any larger sizes (if they were to ever reach larger sizes, boas over 8' are rare but not unheard of).

My 6.5' male is 8.5-9 lbs, gets a large rat 150-275 grams or a 1/2 lb rabbit every 4-5 weeks. The female is 7' and 10-13.5 lbs (need to get an exact weight), she only gets a large rat 150-275 grams or a 1/2+ rabbit every 4-5 weeks. My yearling boas are normally eating small mice every other week, my 2 year olds weaned rats every 2-3 weeks, and my 3 years olds (well will be in June) are currently on small rats.

Now, on the other hand I also don't strictly adhere to this 100%. Sometimes they may get bigger meals, sometimes they may be late, and I usually do not feed while in shed (which means up to 4 weeks of extra time between meals). If they get a larger-than-average meal, I either wait an additional 1-2 weeks to feed, or skip an entire feeding day, depending on how large the meal is. They don't always eat the same size of meal every time, and don't always eat at the same frequency.

I don't feed my snakes based off a formula, beyond how often I feed them. I mostly eyeball what I feed them, but I keep track of weights somewhat to aid in data retention for other keepers' uses, if I ever need to compare my regimens.

Originally Posted by TRD

I would like to see your "scientifically proven to eat 4x their weight in a year" reference to an actual scientific paper. Can you please post the name and/or (pref.) doi of that paper please? If that line comes from that book you mention, there should be a reference mentioned in it.

You know, if a human would eat 4x it's weight in a year in food, a 80 kg male would eat 878 gram of food per day. And we are highly active warm blooded mammals who are highly inefficient in their dietary needs compared to reptiles. We waste a great deal of our energy obtained from our food (60-80%) on digestion and keeping our organs going on a daily basis, and put an additional 10-20% into heating our bodies.

Seeing that you suggest that a boa is just barely more efficient than a human, I highly doubt the correctness of this research you mention and I would like to see it for myself.

Originally Posted by TRD

Can floor his logic too...

Take a 4000 gr Ball python, with his logic in the wild it would eat 16 kg of food/year according to you.

A Ball python in the wild aestivates 3 months of the year underground due to high temperatures (this is also when they were collected, and hence the termite mount myth emerged).

So that leaves us with 9 months of activity.

Are we really suggesting here that a 4000 gr BALL PYTHON is eating on AVERAGE 818 gram per 14 days? Or a 2500 gr python is eating 511 gr per 14 days (that's a weaned rat or XL mouse every day in the wild)?!

Are we also suggesting that metabolism across snake taxa is the same, and always between 10-15% for adults? "and most other snakes too". Can you please list those "other snakes" and come with the supporting documents on those?

I'm all for good and well supported feeding regimen as most, if not all, snakes are massively overfed in captivity. But supply the foundation on which this is build, factual research data, differences between taxa and their metabolism, differences in prey item nutritional value (rodents, avian, reptilian, amphibian, etc prey - and hence different feeding frequencies and sizes), differences in behavior (aestivation, brumation, etc), and so on.

Just some losely and horribly substantiated post like this doesn't add any value, and doesn't come good to the hobby.

Originally Posted by TRD

No, he mentioned that in captivity it is 2x, which is still crazy, so I want to see his references on which he based his thesis (which by lack of reference would be floored by any competent reviewer).

Also, was your thesis written for a degree in zoology or any other veterinarian education? Or was it an altogether different direction and you picked this as it was your interest? I could write a factually bullshit thesis on archaeology in Japanese, for a Japanese literature subject and still pass when my use of spelling and grammar is good.

Their "thesis" seems to mostly be loosely based off of single, non peer reviewed pet care book, and their hypothetical estimates for snake growth. I'm doubtful this was an actual thesis as in a scientific peer-reviewed paper.

I'm thinking they mean just their own personal hypothesis, perhaps it's a translation error and they're using "thesis" incorrectly in this context, or they're attributing too much weight to their own methods.

It also appears this may be his first boa...

[kudzu]

If you would, please clarify something. When you say "all constrictors" are you referring to the boa genus? Just making sure you are not trying to apply this to all species that use constriction.

[Bandit]

BB, these are animals we're talking about, not machines. All of this math and whatnot isn't really necessary for this, and I'm curious as to the accuracy of the information. Should you stick to general guidelines for feeding? Yes, because over/underfeeding is never something you want to do. However, it seems a bit much to calculate out every meal for the rest of your snake's life. I'm glad your enthusiastic about this and putting in the work to make sure your snake is healthy, but you're making it overly complicated in my opinion.

On a final note, "all constrictors" makes this ridiculously over-generalized. I don't think you realize how many snake species use constriction as a means to kill their prey.

[Jim Smith]

I have followed this thread with some interest and I must admit some head scratching. When asked how much I feed my snakes, the answer is always, it depends. There are so many variables involved that I seriously doubt that any math formula will provide the correct answers. It depends on the individual animal, its feeding habits, is it preparing for shed?, time of year etc., etc., etc. I simply pay attention to each of my snakes and keep close records of their feedings, sheds etc. As a general rule, I feed my younger snakes about every 7-10 days and the mature snakes less frequently based on their specific needs. No math needed, just good husbandry and paying attention to each animal. Think of it this way. What if someone tried to tell you to feed your children both the frequency and volume of food simply based on a math formula. Not all kids are the same and quite frankly neither are all snakes, even those of the same species. I think that in an effort to simplify the process, you're actually over complicating it. Just my two cents worth.

[BallBuster7653]

Guys I think everyone is reading to far into this. If you are someone who feeds per every week or bi weekly and go by girth and things like that. Then this isn’t for you. This is more for someone like me who likes the math behind it and likes to have an equation for REFERENCE big snake girl! This of course with all our cold blooded friends has to be applied to each individual snake and their needs. They’re all different! I have over 10 years of keeping very healthy large constrictors. Never usually more than 2 at a time. I am not a collector. I just prefer usually one. With maybe a pair of balls on the side to breed lol. I have bred ball pythons MAny times. And a pair of burns I had from babies to 5 years old once. Unfortunately I broke my neck in a car accident 2 years back and had to move back home so it’s been a few years since I had any of my serpent friends but now I am back and I choose to put of all my favorite that’s a Suriname female will get to my favorite size and of course beauty that I would like to keep long term. Unfortunately I got a male but I love him just as much. That’s all hey had left. No listen just because I have a lot of experience does not mean I am perfect I have done a lot of trial and error type things I have taught myself I have read many many books and I have been on many of these forums over the years talking and getting many opinions by many other reptile lovers and keepers before I could finally have the pride and the being comfortable to say that I am an expert keeper I guess I would say nobody is an expert but I would say I know much more than the average person I’m sure we all do. I know what I’m doing put it that way.

But we are all always learning. Like right now. I have a question that is very amateur and im admin it because now like many Situations they are all different.

Now big snake girl. You cannot possibly feed your 9 pounds adult male Siri a half pound rabbit on average once a month!!! Cumon. You yourself said it’s not exact. I’m sure he is fed more. An adult male of 9 pounds or -approx 4000 grams at least a pounds binweekly or a 2 pounder once every 4-5 weeks. Maybe a little less depending how much you take him ou and how much exercise he gets. And if he’s a breeder that’s beyond me. I do not breed my larger snakes so of course my formula would dramatically change but still work. Remember from the beginning I said snakes in cpativity. Most constrictors need about twice their weight a year when they are adults. Not breeding! And getting moderate exercise. Not just left to go back and forth in a cage all day everyday. Soaking , handling. Letting them outstretch them scales is moderate exercise. Snakes that are breeding and things like that or are in the wild need more like at least 4x it’s weight a year. Remember I personally made this for him I’m sorry I made this formula so I have come up with these numbers and I’ll choose by weekly maybe for other people it will go easier weekly like I said it doesn’t mean you feed biweekly you could feed every three days every six days every 11 days whatever you want but whatever is right for the snake and whatever is right for the specific snack so of course you’re not only going to feed a full-grown sorry now I’m ready how about a once a month when it is still growing and being prepared to cycle for breeding or anything like that you have to add in all the factors and if that’s just too much for someone in your head then it’s just not the right guideline for you but I am saying for me. Remember I personally made this for him I’m sorry I made this formula so I have come up with these numbers and I’ll choose by weekly maybe for other people it will go easier weekly like I said it doesn’t mean you feed biweekly you could feed every three days every six days every 11 days whatever you want but whatever is right for the snake and whatever is right for the specific snack so of course you’re not only going to feed a full-grown sorry now I’m ready how about a once a month when it is still growing and being prepared to cycle for breeding or anything like that you have to add in all the factors and if that’s just too much for someone in your head then it’s just not the right guideline for you but I am saying for me many many years I have grown up on these forums asking questions and almost being yelled that because I’m a child asking so many questions but it’s gave me the knowledge I have today and I asked the same questions because I didn’t feel like I had an answer that satisfied me and maybe sometimes I still do but this formula satisfies me it’s what I’ve come up with all these years it’s a personal project of mine so please you know don’t anybody knock it too much because of his pride and joy of mine and keeping my none of you have read I have never put this formula on paper I have never wrote it out and actually took the time to maybe it doesn’t make so much sense but if you don’t put a lot of effort and thought into it just keep it simple and read the basic guidelines I was right and they basically will work for any constrictor

Someone asked before what I mean by an constrictor. Any in the Boid family. One
More time, although if anyone of you give me your snakes weight and age o bet you if I apply this logic to your specific snake that your feeding is similar if your doing things right. I just think after all of these years the past 10 years that I have owned different types of reptiles when serpents are my favorite that there has never been a very specific guideline when it comes to feeding and yes I totally get that everything is different and things like that but I mean a general rule of thumb besides the one by I always read and here and like 1 to 1.5 it’s a girth every 7 to 10 days things like that I’ve always found to be very vast and vague. So I like to come up with my own litter formula like this for my animals.

So I’m going to use bigsbake girl boa. If this male Suriname red tail does not breed and is a pet snake. An adult. And has the same temps and environment all year round. Then... and so I don’t insult bigsbake girl because this Is me putting my heart out there for everyone to stay like this is my I came up with this and I don’t want to be a friend and I wouldn’t wanna offend anyone else so just using you as an example let’s say I have a 6.5 ft. Boa and 10 pounds. Well going by my formula he needs 1/10 bi weekly. So simple. 1 pound rabbit bi weekly. Or a 2 pounder monthly. Or you can do a jumbo rat every 3 weeks. If it weighs 650 grams. Lol so many numbers it throws someone off. But a 10 pound adult constrictor needs twice its
Body weight a year. So 20 pounds. Divide by 12 months. About 1.8 pounds a month. Can round so like I said before 2 pounds a month. 1 pound bi weekly. So if feeding half pound rabbits it would need one a week. Not every 4-5 weeks. But you would be surprised that many keepers and breeders like us are feeding these amounts I’m saying but they just don’t waive their prey or there snakes and they’re not sure exactly of how much they weigh.

Ok sorry for all that. Lot of typing I tried to speak into my phone so my typing and spelling wouldn’t be too off by means of my ****** keyboard. I have lots to learn still !!! I am 29 years old So here’s my basic simple ?
So I just got my thermostat in the mail it works awesome so now the hot side of the cage never goes above 93° at that Saturday and I gave him a nice cave with some moss inside and I spray it down so he definitely has a nice humid box on the hot side as well as a hot side hide the ambient temperature in the cage on the day or about low 80s and low to mid 70s at night unfortunately I just found out during the day the humidity is only about 40% so my question is is that OK. It’s because of the light I use. I have always used overhead lamps. Even in Vivarium sand other methods of housing. They are mostly for Light and they are on a timer but they do give the slight increase of temperatures that they need during the day.
Now he does have a hide that’s at all times filled with moist spahgnum moss. And at night his humidity is around 60 percent. Plus times like right now for the day I start to notice the shed coming on. Until he sheds himself. I soak every night for 20 mins in warm water. As well as spray the whole cage down with warm water. Humidity gets high. Up to 90 percent if not more. So my ? And worry is. For now At least for the next year until I put him in a permanent vivarium his in a 30 gallon tank right now and my question is at least the one side is low humidity as low as 35% is that OK during the day as long as he always has his humid hide and of course during said he has the correct humidity cycles he’s a great snake he goes back-and-forth all day to his different temperatures I just got a temp gun to the temperatures vary all over but nothing goes above 95 and nothing goes below 75. S at least for the next year until I put him in a permanent vivarium his in a 30 gallon tank right now and my question is at least the one side is low humidity as low as 35% is that OK during the day as long as he always has his humid hide and of course during said he has the correct humidity cycles he’s a great snake he goes back-and-forth all day to is different temperatures I just got a temp gun to the temperatures vary all over but nothing goes above 95 and nothing goes below 75 ometimes at night ambient can g o to low 70s but he always has a 90 degree he’ll heat on a third of his whole cage from left to right. Here’s a pic of the cage and layout too. So my next formula is going to be for temperatures and humidity. Lol. Jk. That’s just too much for me. The good thing is enough.

In conclusion on my opinion and what I’ve come up with as far as the feeding schedule and regimen it is just something I use for myself that I’m putting out there to see if anyone else finds it helpful because over the years that I have always worried about how much and how often to feed eventually coming up with this chart is what gave me peace of mind and made me not always be constantly wearing about the numbers because I am a little OCD and kind of need everything to work out otherwise I’m up at night like thinking how much my snake should eat and I’m not even kidding LOL so that’s why I really appreciate this and I have came up with this from asking the annoying questions many many times over and over again over the past 10 years as well as reading a lot of published literature and talking to many experienced breeders and keepers such as bob black himself told me a couple years ago he would be interested in seeing this in detail. I can’t believe I didn’t look into that further but now I was thinking of maybe somehow putting a little care guide together but I don’t know if I want to make it for all contractors just boa constrictors or reticulated python which I have a lot of experience with or Burmese python I’m not sure if I should single it out or not but just a thought and I was just sharing my thoughts and formula with other experience keepers or even novice To add to the everlasting knowledge with hero’s. Everyday I learn something new. And I wouldn’t have it any other day.

Also yes I have only had one Suriname. And a green anaconda in the pay. And a Colombian red tail. They are this boas I have had. The Suriname got to 5.5 for in like 3 years but unfortunately I had to give her up because I had to leave where I was at. Also had a green anaconda and a bci for about a year.

I have only had retic and Burmese as adults in the past which is why I’m glad someone corrected me on the weight. Lol. Saying that an 8 foot sorry now I’m Bella weighs about 50 pounds really made me look like I don’t know what I’m talking about LOL thank you big snake girl now I know what they really get to I’m just thinking of a dog or a text and browns and how much more weight they put on and how much faster they grow so yes I am learning a lot about our contractors day by day

[BallBuster7653]

Heres the cage plus the cave with moss in it. The cage is so cool its from Exo Terra. I like it.. Wish they had giant ones for adults. But hes 28" so hes good for a year probably in here. then Im gonn a put him in a 4'x2'x2' vivarium from somewhere. hot side is the left side and on the right side is where im getting only the 40 percent humidity when the lamp is on.

[BallBuster7653]

Also boaGirl I am not about power feeding or getting thjem to grow fster t atll!!! I want a alrge snake but just s far as genetics and a good feeding regimen give, nothing more. BUt your saying by suriname after a year should be 2.5- 3 ft? hes 3 months old I think hes 28" they were feeding hoppers weekly...so IM guesssing 28" 3 months old? or is he older thn that? Hes 28" and 100 grams exactly. 1/2" girth. I would relly lik to be exct with when he ws born but of course LLreptile isnt sure. ..but anyway hes already almost 2.5 ft anf he cant be anywhere near a year old can he?

IM tinking...now hes 28" im thinking/estimating this:

now 28"- a year from now 4 ft
then 5 ft 2 ears from now.... 6ft from 3 years from now and in about 5 years i would hope for a 7 ft 10-15 pounds nice adult male suriname...thats my estimate..

but i base my feedings by their weight every month I record their weight girth and length and adjust to my regimen.

[BallBuster7653]

Also...I never bred boas but from this... a 20 pounds 8 ft female suri..which im guessing the weight... but if she needs 2x food per year but spends 2 months in brumation and then long pregnancy....lets say at most she spends 6 months without eating mostly or cutting back food. she should be eating a 2 pound rabbit bi weekly....but if shes not gonna eat fr 6 months then 4 pounds every 2 weeks is alot but think of how much fasting shell be doing....or if you have a female thta will eat during this time just give prey half the size...IM just thinking out loud lol. I do hope to breed them one day . I would like to do Ball python morphs but I need to wait until im stable, have my own place, and a good secure career. Im still living the night life right now and working bank during the day, like a double life lol, tripple life once I turn into my herp loving mode. Just love these forums guys otherwise I would have nobody that really shares my passion and understand this whole different side to me!!! xoxox

[BallBuster7653]

Sorry for all the posts but I was thinking I could another lamp and another bulb. Anight bulb but that’s a lot of plugs! Ugh. I like to keep it light. I could get a 75-100 watt nighttime bulb and just put a lamp in my room or something close to the cage on a time for light. I just want to provide enough light. I’m not really sure what to do.

Sorry I made this from feeding into a basic heating and lighting question but I just wanna get his cage right.

[BallBuster7653]

I heard Suriname enjoy cooler ambient temps. If that’s true and 72 degrees at night as ambient and always having the 90 hot spot and hide. And my day time temps are ambient of low 80s but the humidity is also bad during the day. It’s 35 during the day and 50-60 at night. I also must. So any suggestions for small tweaks I can make to make it perfect for him. Just so excited to have a snake again. It’s been years I just am refreshing myself to everything. Thanks everyone for the input and welcoming.