House Snake Identification Help - Page 2

SerpentineDream · 06-08-17, 12:12 PM

Most can't interbreed. They'll happily mate but no eggs will come of it. Apparently there are a couple of subspecies that can. I wonder if B. fuliginosis and B. olivaceus are two of the few that can actually produce offspring from a pairing.

There's a lot of variability among true olives though. Some are almost black, some are teal and some are the classic olive color. The eyes (if they do stay dark) and the subcaudal scales are what make me think "intergrade?"

TLD · 06-08-17, 06:42 PM

I'm fairly certain fulis and olivaceus can interbreed. Otherwise I don't know where we would get all the hobby olives from. The African house snake FB group has some experienced people in there that you can post up pictures of your guys to get opinions on. I tried to give you a link to an example of a true boaedon olivaceus but apparently I cant post links. So if you google "the fate of serpents bruce G Marcot" you'll see one, its dead though.

Nice grab snatching up those black housies btw. I've got five house snakes, two black ones and I'll tell you that ad was really tempting.

SerpentineDream · 06-09-17, 05:20 PM

Not sure if it helps with IDing them but these guys seem to be strongly arboreal. They have prehensile tails and when I took the sisters out of their deli cup they wrapped their tails together in an attempt to resist being removed. All 3 of them climb all over everything available to them. Despite their current dark coloration when the light hits them just so they have a distinctive green iridescent sheen.

I seem to recall recently reading that most of the "true olives" that people have are actually B. fuliginosus x B. olivaceus intergrades so there is agreement with you there that those two subspecies can interbreed. I found a defunct house snake forum that has been inactive since 2013 but it did have a lot of information.

Will check out that photo. Thank you!

I just joined Facebook for the sole purpose of finding the African house snake group after a decade of stubborn resistance. :P Assimilation was inevitable.

Welcome to 2017, self.

TLD · 06-09-17, 06:26 PM

Sorry you had to join facebook. I only use it for the reptile groups honestly, and sometimes I even question how much benefit I get out of them. The AHS group is good though. Not super active but you can get input from knowledgeable people like Erik Paterson and such.

All of my capensis and fuliginosus have a good grip and like to grab onto things. I usually take out furnishings around where they're hiding before I remove the snake because otherwise I'm bringing out a stick or hide with the animal. Its funny how good of a grip they have because given a choice my females spend most of their time buried in aspen.

One fun thing you'll notice with your black housies (if they're black fulis, not sure about inornatus or olivaceus) is that they will have frequent slight color changes. Sometimes even over the course of a day. I haven't personally taken photos documenting it yet but Lilo Gentilcopain talks about it a little bit on his care sheet page about house snakes. I still cant link things but if you google his name and fuliginosus I think its like the third link.

Magdalen · 06-09-17, 09:25 PM

I was just about to suggest the FB group

they can get you in touch with some breeders in Africa ... hopefully.

SerpentineDream · 06-10-17, 12:55 AM

TLD, those pics were very sad but also helpful.

For those that want a look, here is the link. The Fate of Serpents

I'm having issues with Facebook locking me out after I made updates to the new account so haven't reached the house snake group yet. I will still get in contact with them to see if I can get a positive ID from someone.

However Danny is right: True olive house snakes have single subcaudal scales all the way down the tail, not just one under the cloaca.

These guys have mostly divided subcaudals and dark eyes that may (or may not) get redder with age per the seller. Otherwise the coloration and shape of the head are dead on for B. olivaceus.

At this point I am *almost* certain that they are B. olivaceus x B. fuliginosus intergrades after all. These are commonly sold as "West African Olive House Snakes," though probably more commonly sold as "True Olive House Snakes." It would be easy enough to think they were exactly that.

If that is true, I will simply sell their future babies as West African Olive House snakes, natural B. olivaceus x B. fuliginosus intergrades from WC Ghanian grandparents. I think they're worth more than they were sold to me for, but not as much as a pure B. olivaceus. They are beautiful and unique.

We shall see!

TLD · 06-10-17, 01:46 AM

These are my black fuliginosus.

I would really like to show you a study from morocco about fuliginosus. It had specimens that look similar to yours.

SerpentineDream · 06-10-17, 02:21 AM

Wow, I see the resemblance for sure. Those are some sharp-looking snakes.

Where they do differ is that the eyes protrude less in my specimens, the shape of the head is a bit different (more of a distinction between head and neck) and mine have rounder, smoother body scales.

I'd love to see the study. You should be able to post links very soon... IIRC after 10 posts?

TLD · 06-10-17, 02:42 AM

10 posts. Dang. I know I have one post that I tried to reply here that is queued for a moderator approval already from this morning. Not sure what words I used that flagged it.

You'll see the study if you google "morocco fuliginosus" first link. Compare the faded head of the adult to the faded head of the adult you posted. Also the dark juvies to the juvies you have.

**Tsubaki** · 06-10-17, 04:22 AM

You should be able to posts links already now

TLD · 06-10-17, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

You should be able to posts links already now

I sen't you a message with the screenshot, but I really can't. Seems I can't even post photos now because they need a url. Not super important though I suppose.

TLD · 06-10-17, 01:03 PM

Per moderator advice I'm trying again.

Here is the link to the page about boaedon fuliginosus in Morocco. Its more of a species overview about fuliginosus living in that country.

When you're able to get on the African house snake group you should be able to get input from experienced folks.

SerpentineDream · 06-11-17, 03:24 AM

Looking at that article I see more similarities. While they don't look exactly like my guys I think the influence of B. fuliginosus is irrefutable, especially considering the lightening of the eyes and body scales from juvenile to adult (though this is mostly limited to the head in the Ghanian locality). I'm pretty confident that they are intergrades between B. olivaceus and B. fuliginosus by this point.

I e-mailed Erik Paterson and asked him to take a look. In the meantime I'm waiting for Facebook to decide that I'm not a security threat to my own account.

SerpentineDream · 06-19-17, 03:31 AM

The verdict is in from Erik Paterson: There are actually 2 possibilities.

One is that they are indeed intergrades between B. olivaceus and B. fuliginosus. He thought that not only can they intergrade but that many olives in the pet trade appear to have characteristics of both as mine do and are possibly intergrades between them. These are the "hobby olives" in the UK.

The second possibility is that they are a previously undescribed subspecies. He suspects that when molecular taxonimists have time to deal with house snakes again, many new cryptic subspecies may emerge. So the little guys could be something totally new.