Not a big fan of wc

[Steph/NY]

using the excuse of bringing "new blood" to justify wc is so disingenuous
Dogs have been bred for 100s or 1000s of years and most of the breds are completly inbreds but they seem to do just fine.
Please, don't try to use "science" to justify wc!!!

Steph

[1Vipera]

Hello,
Sorry but the aquiration of WC herps is partly inevitable.
Many species could not be established in captivity if one wasn't able to aquire wildcaught animals.
For example:captivebred Atheris hispida?very very rare.
If no A.hispida would have been caught,there wouldn't have been the first captive breeding in 2000(Snakes of the World,Costa Rica [Meidinger, R. (2000): Erfolgreiche Haltung und Erstnachzucht von Atheris hispidus, der Rauhschuppigen Buschviper. - elaphe, Rheinbach, 8(4): 5-10.])

The list goes on and and includes virtually every herp in captivity today.
Are you trying to suggest we should inbreed or maybe crossbreed certain species?
If you think that crossbreeding doesn't do any harm,than please
explain the high ratios of deadborn and deformed offspring of Vipera ursinii rakosiensis(Hungarian meadow viper) in Hungary at present (I know negative effect of inbreeding is scientifically controversial).
Populations there are 85-100% genetically identical.
If one would have taken more care to establish and breed captive populations,those specimens could maybe have been used to bring more genetic variability into those isolated populations.
(Read up about the present situation in [Ujvari, B., T. Madsen, T. Kotenko, M. Olsson, R. Shine, and H. Witzell. 2002. Low genetic diversity threatens imminent extinction for the Hungarian meadow viper (Vipera ursinii rakosiensis). Biological Conservation 105:127-130; read it up at :http://www.bio.usyd.edu.au/Shinelab/...prints/310.pdf ].

Genetic variability is no doubt important, as also suggested by Madsen et. al about Vipera berus (f.E.:Madsen, Thomas, B. Stille, and R. Shine. 1995. Inbreeding depression in an isolated population of adders Vipera berus. Biological Conservation 75: 113 - 118.)
The cause of inbreeding depression is often inflicted by man(habitat fragmentation).
Of course I agree the use of WC ball pythons should be avoided.

Best Regards, Dennis

[Xetox]

I don't agree that field collecting is wrong all in all, for new blood on a professianal basis I see no wrong....what I have a problem with is the large imports that happen every year!


I dont believe as steph does that we should imbreed, it does not matter what kinda of spiecies we are talking about that should always try to be avoided!

I mean look at arkansas J/K

[Jeff Hathaway]

I think Steph was referring to species which are common in the pet trade, not Atheris hispida or various other things which are certainly NOT common or well established. Her example, dogs, is only one species. We could select MANY herp species for which new blood is hardly required. For example, it bothers me when I hear about people deciding to collect a wild corn snake for "new blood". There are limited circumstances where this is justified (to me, anyway), and most pet trade species would not fall into this category.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Vanan]

BTW, one of the most inbred pets out there are dogs! Why do you think almost all purebred dogs have tendencies to a list of health problems? Inbreeding is not ok. We (me and Katt) take a very strong stand in that matter. Some species of snakes are more tolerable to being inbred than others.

As for bringing more WC's, I agree with Xetox. Best left in the hands of pros seeking out new species and new bloodlines. Not to be brought in wholesale and sit at a store for months and either rot away there or be picked up by a newbie.

Sorry Steph but most things boil down to a science. Importing rare and endangered species may be vital to their existence.

[Burmies]

I just love being a spectator.

Burmies

[Xetox]

Originally posted by Burmies
I just love being a spectator.

Burmies

I agree! There is nothing better than seeing a species you love in the wild, and even interacting with it on a limited basis!

[Jeff Hathaway]

I will agree that there are times when removing additional animals from the wild to provide genetic diversity is a good idea. I also agree that it should be done by people who no what they're doing, not someone on a recreational field trip, and certainly not in large numbers for resale.

Also, for those species which are rare or threatened, removal of wild specimens should be done in the manner that is least damaging to the wild population as possible. For example, with turtles, removing hatchlings, as most of them would die anyway. Even better, remove eggs, and then you can make them whatever sex you need if the species is TSD.

Purebred dogs are definitely quite inbred. Isn't that essentially what the concept of 'purebred' guarantees? When you continually try to breed things so that they look exactly alike, this is bound to happen. Dogs, as a species, are not all that inbred. All you have to do is start breeding shepherds with retrievers and huskies, etc. and things are okay. You don't need to go breeding them 'wild specimens'.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[BWSmith]

Boy, this thread has grown since I last checked it. I am just going to go off in a thousand different directions here so bear with me and see if it makes sense.

First, let's define the different types of field collecting. We have personal "herping". Generally this is someone experienced that is looking for a particular species generally gor their personal collection. This may be to get a new bloodline, for personal enjoyment, or for educational purposes. We also have scientific collection. These are species captured for the purpose of ecological, environmental or biological research. Most of these animals will be killed. For behavior studies, they will not. But snakes are a great indicator species for chemical levels int he environment. Then we have "harvesting" wild snakes. This includes those that keep everything they catch for the purpose of resale no matter the species, condition, or health (I have seen Queen Snakes for sale!! Who the hell is going to get freshly molted crayfish for feeders?). Harvested snakes are also pretty much all imports. It is amazing how many mambas, cobras, Gaboons and other venomous come in with noose marks around their necks. African and Asian snakes, particularly, are harvested by the thousands. We have probably tens of thousands of Ball Pythons alone come in each year.

The Personal Collector: I fall into this catagory. Someone mentioned Corn Snakes earlier. I have every intention of catching and keeping a Corn Snake this year. In the stateof GA, an Educational Permit is required for any nonvenomous snake, this includes Corn Snakes. Why doesn't he just buy one? For Educational Purposes, I try to represent what people may find in their yard. I doubt very much that a farmer in Georgia is going to run across a Creamsickle X Candycane X Snow X Licorice het for Alligator Corn Snake. I make it a point to use primarily WC animals for education as they are indicitive of the animals in the area. I will submit that often times a snake is originally collected for a personal collection, but over time, it finds itself in the trade. Happens quite a bit. Those of us that deal in large numbers of animals are often trading and so forth.

Collection for Scientific Purposes: Ther is no doubt as to the validity of this collection, as long as it is done with scruples.

Harvesting Snakes: I don't care for this practice, but that makes me a hipocrit. Basically, no matter how anyone feels about it, it is here to stay. Where there is demand, there will be supply. It is generally not the average herper that buys most of these animals, at least not knowingly. One of the largest importers in the US is Strictly Reptiles. Due to the volume, they can Low Ball about anyone on price. What are pet shops looking for? The cheapest price and the greatest profit. So if they can get a Ball Python CB for $30 and sell it for $60 or get a WC for $6 and sell it for $60, no mystery what they are going to do. Many will even tell you that the animals are CB. Bottom line is that 90% of all animals in pet shops are WC. Whether you or I buy a WC or Import here and there is actually fairly inconcequencial in the scheme of things. I would venture to say that most experienced herpers do not by animals from "Pet Shops", Herp Shop maybe, but not the traditional chain Pet Store. Even in Herp Shops a large percentage of the animals will be wc. Little tip: If it has ticks, chances are that it is NOT CB. If all the sudden, there are 30 adults of about any species, chances are they are not CB. Hell, they still mport WC Columbian Red Tails!

If we break it down to simplicity, then we are all in the wrong. We are ALL keeping animals that are wild animals. If I were a Purist, I would not keep venomous, I would not keep snakes at all, basically, I would be the Humane Society (but enemies of the herp world is another rant). We are all hipocrits. We all have our own ideas of what is ethical and what is not. We want to keep our animals, but now that we have them, we don't want to see any taken from the wild. Even though that is where they all originally came from. I am probably the biggest hipocrit of all. I dont care for imports, but if it something I have been unable to find CB, I may get it. I may keep a specimen or 5 each year from the field. I am an advocate of the right to keep venomous, yet I will fight to my dying breath condemning venomoids. I have no idea where this post was going, I guess it is just a bunch of random thoughts to ponder. I need more coffee.

[Xetox]

I am not saying it don't happen or that I have not done it myself or that I won't collect a speciman in the future for personal reasons and at that I know AI am a hipocrit. But I still don't like the large scale collecting and there is small things we can do to help stop it.

Here is a great article that I may have already posted but I thought it was good info about this subject....check it out and let me know what you think!@

http://www.arbreptiles.com/cc.html

[J_Riley]

Like BW said, the only way to stop imports is to remove the demand. The only way to remove the demand is education. However, trying to educate a parent about snakes b/c thier current 2 year old child might decide they want a [insert herp species here] when the family ventures into a pet store 6 years down the road is just not feasible. The only other option is to sell CB specimens cheaper than the cost of an import.

So let me ask the tough question. All you people that breed and sell to pet stores, why don't you GIVE your CB offspring to the petstores and help alleviate the demand for imports?? Same reason imports will continue - M O N E Y...

[Xetox]

I do sell to the local pet stores around my area and I do sell for the same price that they would pay for imports or wc. And in turn they promote CB animals and allow me to leave handouts at the store to try to educate about it!

I try to do my part as best that I can!