sand substrate

[Minkness]

I'm sorry Andy, I don't think you were being clear enough.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by sirtalis

Ok, I may be wrong but I've used plain sand for 5 years with my leopard geckos without fail. If you keep the humidity higher than suggested impaction will not be am issue, the pictures are usually calcium sand impactions just for future reference, yes adding soil is recomended but play sand coupled with a 130 f basking spot and 60% humidity works great for me at least, I pour about 1 liter of water into their enclosure once a week, once it dries out the top layer is virtually a rock, ill post a thread about leopard geckos and sand once I can take some pictures, talk to any experienced reptile keeper and they will tell you that play sand is perfectly fine. If you follow 19 year old caresheets they will tell you otherwise though

It can take longer than that for the sand to build up. You're in denial and putting a keepers' reptiles at risk if you think it isn't a problem.

Sand naturally sticks together when wet, sure the chances of impaction are increased with improper care, but that doesn't stop it completely.

Proper husbandry also doesn't stop life-threatening infections when sand gets stuck in their tissues.

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

No really it isn't.

Loose substrates in and of themselves do not cause impaction-fact. Indeed many wild and captive lizards have been observed purposefully ingesting soil and sand for mineral intake.

Poor husbandry causes impaction when coupled with loose substrates-incorrect temperatures and humidity etc-as this causes issues with digestion. The animals you see have been kept incorrectly in other ways other than the substrate.

I have recently spoken with very experienced keepers on this matter and not one has ever seen impaction caused by the ingestion of substrate alone.

I am not disputing that sand on its own is a good substrate for other reasons but impaction-assuming correct husbandry-is not one of them.

See above.

Why use an expensive, dangerous substrate like sand when:

1) it's easier to maintain that higher humidity on a different substrate

2) there's not only a danger of impaction but of infections from physical damages due to the sand

3) it's extremely unhygienic, especially since a lot of people trying "cleaning" the sand to reuse it

[dannybgoode]

Absolutely 100% categorically not the case BSG. End of.

There is no way I would do anything to put my reptiles health at risk hence why I have investigated this thoroughly and again-sand in and of itself is not dangerous. I am 100% happy that there is zero risk of impaction. 100%. As are many many other keepers.

Poor husbandry when coupled with sand or indeed any loose substrate is a significant issue however and people's animals still suffer from it because they don't do the research and/our do not invest in the proper set up.

Yes there is an argument that because people decide not to provide the right set up then we'd should not encourage them to use such substrates but I'd argue there's an equally strong argument that such people shouldn't keep reptiles full stop.

In the past such substrates were a major issue but simply because the equipment needed to properly support a healthy environment (high powered uv, effective heating etc) was beyond the reach of hobby keepers.

Consequently when loose substrates were used impaction did occur frequently and the blame apportioned on them.

Now decent equipment is available to all and the other husbandry requirements attainable (and much more widely understood) loose substrates do not present any danger and indeed in most cases is preferable to the alternatives.

Wood chips, lino, reptile carpet, tiles, loose slate etc are all appalling substrates for most lizards.

Sand harbours no more bacteria than any other substrates assuming it is properly maintained. The only area where I think it falls down is the way it doesn't hold moisture but I have already addressed that.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

Absolutely 100% categorically not the case BSG. End of.

There is no way I would do anything to put my reptiles health at risk hence why I have investigated this thoroughly and again-sand in and of itself is not dangerous. I am 100% happy that there is zero risk of impaction. 100%. As are many many other keepers.

Poor husbandry when coupled with sand or indeed any loose substrate is a significant issue however and people's animals still suffer from it because they don't do the research and/our do not invest in the proper set up.

Yes there is an argument that because people decide not to provide the right set up then we'd should not encourage them to use such substrates but I'd argue there's an equally strong argument that such people shouldn't keep reptiles full stop.

In the past such substrates were a major issue but simply because the equipment needed to properly support a healthy environment (high powered uv, effective heating etc) was beyond the reach of hobby keepers.

Consequently when loose substrates were used impaction did occur frequently and the blame apportioned on them.

Now decent equipment is available to all and the other husbandry requirements attainable (and much more widely understood) loose substrates do not present any danger and indeed in most cases is preferable to the alternatives.

Wood chips, lino, reptile carpet, tiles, loose slate etc are all appalling substrates for most lizards.

Sand harbours no more bacteria than any other substrates assuming it is properly maintained. The only area where I think it falls down is the way it doesn't hold moisture but I have already addressed that.

Seeing as this is a snake we're talking about, that is not my main worry here. If you want to wave your reptile's life then so be it. My main issue being addressed here is it can still cause physical damage, regardless of husbandry. Proper humidity and temperatures doesn't change the fact that tissue has been damaged. Reptiles with stronger immune systems may or may not be able to fight back against bacteria in the wounds, but it's a game of chance.

Sand holds water, water is a breeding ground for bacteria. This is also why it's not so good for humidity, it holds the water without releasing it until goes stagnant.

Again, a sandy mixture with 1/3 or less of sand is best if you insist on using sand. Pure sand, not so good. Very few reptiles live in rolling sand dunes, and are not equipped to deal with ingesting pure sand over a length of time.

[sirtalis]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

It can take longer than that for the sand to build up. You're in denial and putting a keepers' reptiles at risk if you think it isn't a problem.

Sand naturally sticks together when wet, sure the chances of impaction are increased with improper care, but that doesn't stop it completely.

Proper husbandry also doesn't stop life-threatening infections when sand gets stuck in their tissues.



See above.

Why use an expensive, dangerous substrate like sand when:

1) it's easier to maintain that higher humidity on a different substrate

2) there's not only a danger of impaction but of infections from physical damages due to the sand

3) it's extremely unhygienic, especially since a lot of people trying "cleaning" the sand to reuse it

actually not at all, the reason being is that a good friend of mine has a 21 year old leopard gecko "spotty" that has lived on sand its entire life, it has a full tail and is almost 12 inches long, I'll have a chance to photograph it on Thursday, it's lived in a semi natural enclosure complete with high basking and plenty of mice in its diet, 1 fuzzy per week, please remind me to share it if I forget and I buy play sand for $3.45/50 lbs, one complete substrate change per month so I pay less than $1.50/month on substrate

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by sirtalis

actually not at all, the reason being is that a good friend of mine has a 21 year old leopard gecko "spotty" that has lived on sand its entire life, it has a full tail and is almost 12 inches long, I'll have a chance to photograph it on Thursday, it's lived in a semi natural enclosure complete with high basking and plenty of mice in its diet, 1 fuzzy per week, please remind me to share it if I forget and I buy play sand for $3.45/50 lbs, one complete substrate change per month so I pay less than $1.50/month on substrate

Why is a leopard gecko eating mice? I thought they were insectivorous...

If by seminatural you mean they're in a bioactive that may explain why. Bioactives usually use sand mixtures, and the bedding is a little more compact, so less likely to cause impaction.

[dannybgoode]

I'm talking about a lizard BSG. And you're wrong on this.

I'm not going to repeat everything I've said but to say I'm waving goodbye to my reptiles life is so utterly far from the mark as to almost be offensive when you have no sound basis to do so.

A 30% mix is an arbitrary number that again has no basis on anything I have read. I know many keepers who use 50%+ sand mixes with no adverse affects at all. Further-why is soil OK. Soil has many similar properties and if anything has a greater propensity to clump than sand and can have fine particles that could lodge in a wound and yet is absolutely fine

I also don't see your argument regarding bioactive and the compactness of the substrate. Lizards tunnel and burrow and come across plenty of fine substrate whether the bulk of it is compact or not.

Find me one paper that sand or other loose substrates cause the issues you mention-that is a scientific paper not some photo of a poor impacted animal where we don't know the background story-and I'll happily read it and consider the evidence.

Otherwise perhaps accept sometimes that your wrong on this occasion. As I say a few years ago yes impaction was an issue due to the reasons I have already mentioned but these days it should not be a concern.

[bigsnakegirl785]

You may be talking about lizards, but the topic of this thread and the main object of my worry is not. Lizards were brought up in a response to one of my responses and apparently is the only thing people want to focus on. I'm not paying hundreds of dollars to get access to scientific papers, so you can continue on with your sand defense. I'm done with this debate, as I have already addressed the extent of my knowledge in this thread and it's off topic.

Whether or not it's a husbandry issue I still believe sand is not worth the trouble, because maybe you'll be on vacation for a week or two one time, or the winter weather makes it difficult to maintain those proper humidity levels. If I'm owning a lizard I'm probably not going to be putting it on particulate bedding at all unless I have it on a bioactive substrate that can take care of itself, and I'm not going to have my snakes on sand because all that's doing is tripling or quadrupling my efforts vs. using my usual EcoEarth or aspen.

[akane]

Like I feared this thread blew up into other species. I am talking about rosy and maybe a sand boa in the future. The humidity needs to be low. I'm in Iowa. The humidity of our air before adding a water dish or substrate with any moisture is plenty. I might pull the water dish and only give periodically like some do but that is another set of research. I am also not talking about filling up a tank with a ton of sand and letting it sit for months or for the snake to build tunnels. I mean maybe 2" with a lot of rock structure, someone did mention pvc pipe partially buried, for hiding and crawling on instead of making self burrows. Then strip it out frequently, disinfect, and replace with new. I also am no longer talking about reptile sand due to the clumping but fine grain quartz or "play sand". Play sand here tends to be dirty, nasty stuff I have to rinse and rinse and rinse though. I rarely use it for anything. I use the small grain quartz for my aquariums because it is smaller, more uniform, cleaner, less dusty, and softer against the scaleless bottom feeder fish or inverts than other options. I have not determined yet if calcium based sand is an increase in problems or if it's just the clumping nature again of the versions sold for reptiles. There are other sterile sources for a calcium based sand.

I have read articles and posts by people who have used only sand for a decade or more trying to find what they might be doing differently from those who quote problems. I have also talked to some doing bioactive and will likely go to that in the future. I was just looking for something simple and natural looking to fill in around the rock structures and water dish instead of plain newspaper layers which allow no digging at all or aspen. I also looked into moss and coir blocks but there were complaints of them being dusty and the snakes having to be wiped off when handled because of the low humidity of a rosy or sand boa enclosure. I also came across someone saying it works fine for them so long as they remove the snake for feeding. The prospect of a feeding bin has been brought up to me before.

I thought about just laying natural stone tile and being able to wipe it down and disinfect but the constant mention of their desire to dig is why I wanted to put enough in for her to nose around while I continue researching.

[chairman]

There's no such thing as an idiot-proof substrate. Some substrates are less forgiving than others and sand can present difficulties. The cause of harm/death is always going to be the husbandry as a whole, not one tiny piece. Any experienced keeper that understands the needs and behavior of their captives can successfully raise an animal in any one of a dozen different setups. Some of those setups require much more effort to maintain than others and some can be quite precarious but they can all produce positive outcomes.

My experience with sand is that not all sands are created equal. Most sand must be washed prior to use, the same way you have to wash sand prior to using it for fish in an aquarium. If you don't wash it then the dust can cause respiratory problems, the same respiratory problems that you can have with aspen, overly dry orchid bark, eco earth, etc. Once again, it isn't the substrate that is bad, it is your preparation of the substrate, your maintenance schedule, your monitoring of humidity.

If I wished to keep a Rosie on sand then I'd use a coarse sand for concrete. The particles won't be consistent in size and there will even be tiny pebbles. This kind of sand will more closely match the natural habitat and, most importantly, it isn't loose so it provides good traction for a snake. Snakes hate the lack of body control that they have on loose sand substrates and similar smooth surfaces. The sand also holds humidity and burrows reasonably well though adding soil or eco earth would help.

My understanding of Rosies is that they like to hang out in crevices so placing light weight stacking "stones," maybe even made of foam, would be good. The whole thing would look pretty good too, a coarse natural looking sand with a rock pile on top. Fit in a natural looking water dish and you're good to go.

On the case of the mouse eating leopard gecko on sand, that keeper (if he's who I think he is) is very knowledgeable and has an enclosure/habitat system that is remarkably versatile. He could cohab leopard geckos, crested geckos, and maybe even a frog species or two in one of his enclosures because he offers a ton of space and a huge variety of temperature and humidity ranges for his captives. We're talking a much larger range than normal, the cool sides are much cooler and the hot spots are much hotter. The strategy focuses on giving the animals the options and opportunities to exhibit a full range of their natural behavior. The approach is not for all but it can produce great results.

[akane]

How smooth do particles need to be including differences in sizes?

[Minkness]

To sum it up, sand isn't the best, bit if you put the work and husbandry behind its fine.

Also, a pinky a week for a leo? I am surprised it's not dead from fatty liver disease.

[sirtalis]

@minkness, this gecko is big enough to eat fuzzy mice and once again, fatty liver disease is usually a result of improper care, not what the animal eats. For years people fed savannah monitors only insects because they thought the rodent based diet was the cause of gout/fatty liver disease but it turned out that to monitors were being kept in sup par enclosure, not enough heat and not enough humidity, they could live for quite some time in the desert cages but would eventually die due to improper care, same with many leopard geckos to this day, people keep their temperatures below the optimal temps and humidity much lower than it should, I mean heck they live in burrows in the wild and often humidity underground is over 80%. I talked to my friend and I'm going to try to go to his house to take a few pictures of his gecko if time permits me today. But yes, for a first time reptile keeper I would suggest a "safer" substrate tile or paper towels because keeping the humidity and temps correct may be a bit daunting at first.

[sirtalis]

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Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

Why is a leopard gecko eating mice? I thought they were insectivorous...

If by seminatural you mean they're in a bioactive that may explain why. Bioactives usually use sand mixtures, and the bedding is a little more compact, so less likely to cause impaction.

ok so I got the pictures, this gecko is 21 years old and has lived on sand its entire life. Now that it is a senior it is kept on black sand so help him catch his food easier, note that he has a full tail.

[Minkness]

I can't argue it's age, but getting 1 pinky a WEEK plus how many insects? Looks a bit thin to me. I feed insects twice a week only and my 7 year old is thicker. And what does having a full tail have to do with anything? Just means he hasn't dropped it.