Well folks...it looks like tomorrow is the day...

[jjhill001]

Lol price on these guys just shot up. If you wanted one ever you better get one now.

[Jrich]

Feral cats though....

[bigsnakegirl785]

Large constrictors are the least of Florida's problems.

[Minkness]

I wouldn't say the least...but hardly so bad that it's all of America's problem x.x

[bigsnakegirl785]

The pythons and boas in the Everglades are some of the least invasive species living there, and pose very little harm to the people who live there. Most of the Burms died off in that cold snap a few years ago, and I've never heard of any real reports of them breeding. Sure, they've found females with eggs in them, but were they viable? Did they survive long enough to hatch? Most of the snakes I've heard them catch were adults and large subadults, haven't heard of any babies being caught or any nests found.

[FWK]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

The pythons and boas in the Everglades are some of the least invasive species living there, and pose very little harm to the people who live there. Most of the Burms died off in that cold snap a few years ago, and I've never heard of any real reports of them breeding. Sure, they've found females with eggs in them, but were they viable? Did they survive long enough to hatch? Most of the snakes I've heard them catch were adults and large subadults, haven't heard of any babies being caught or any nests found.

Burms are breeding in the Everglades. They are well established and are likely impossible to remove other than by the forces of nature herself (there is legitimate concern the Everglades will be under the sea by the end of the century, if the sea level continues to rise at its current rate). That said there is no question that Pythons and Boa constrictors are entirely incapable of becoming established anywhere else in the North America (plenty of studies prove this, but HSUS spends a lot of money to bury these studies), and pose virtually no threat to the public. Snakes do not eat people anymore than American Alligators do, although if you harass either there is most definitely a risk of injury or death. This is strictly a Florida issue but HSUS is dumping millions of dollars into media campaigns and their lobby to convince the country otherwise. And given the public's predisposition to dislike reptiles HSUS is having a pretty good time of it.

The topic of invasive species in the Everglades is hotly debated in the field herper circles. The more optimistic like to see the glass as half full, many invasive species (not just large constrictors) have already reached an equilibrium with the indigenous species (and many studies support this point of view. But you guessed it, HSUS spends a lot of money to bury said studies) and enhanced the already astonishing bio-diversity of the Everglades. The glass half empty people know that the Everglades as they knew it is gone and will never be the same.

Here is a link to a thread about the invasive species in the Everglades with pics of baby Burms and great discussion (note that the first post is largely tongue in cheek).

And a link to HSUS celebrating adding the first of the constrictors to the Lacey Act three years ago. Note that they mention Boa constrictors and Retics are their next targets.

[Minkness]

Don't forget the massive iguanas that fall on people's heads out of trees and attack small children, dogs, and cats.

=/

[themeyers]

and if you think you are safe because your animal is not on this list, think again. they are trying to stop all pet owner ship. and are starting off with the ones that will be "easiest" for them to get. Please donate to usark. and support the fight against this Lacey act. your beloved pets are next.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by FWK

Burms are breeding in the Everglades. They are well established and are likely impossible to remove other than by the forces of nature herself (there is legitimate concern the Everglades will be under the sea by the end of the century, if the sea level continues to rise at its current rate). That said there is no question that Pythons and Boa constrictors are entirely incapable of becoming established anywhere else in the North America (plenty of studies prove this, but HSUS spends a lot of money to bury these studies), and pose virtually no threat to the public. Snakes do not eat people anymore than American Alligators do, although if you harass either there is most definitely a risk of injury or death. This is strictly a Florida issue but HSUS is dumping millions of dollars into media campaigns and their lobby to convince the country otherwise. And given the public's predisposition to dislike reptiles HSUS is having a pretty good time of it.

The topic of invasive species in the Everglades is hotly debated in the field herper circles. The more optimistic like to see the glass as half full, many invasive species (not just large constrictors) have already reached an equilibrium with the indigenous species (and many studies support this point of view. But you guessed it, HSUS spends a lot of money to bury said studies) and enhanced the already astonishing bio-diversity of the Everglades. The glass half empty people know that the Everglades as they knew it is gone and will never be the same.

Here is a link to a thread about the invasive species in the Everglades with pics of baby Burms and great discussion (note that the first post is largely tongue in cheek).

And a link to HSUS celebrating adding the first of the constrictors to the Lacey Act three years ago. Note that they mention Boa constrictors and Retics are their next targets.

First news I've heard of real signs of breeding, good to know! As you said, even if they're established they don't really have the ability to survive in the rest of the US, except maybe Hawaii, if they got there?

I'll leave the ecological information up to the experts, as I'm not experienced in this area, but that thread seemed to be rather argumentative, in many cases unnecessarily so, while also talking in circles. It did seem to at least show there are baby Burms in the Florida wild if nothing else, but at least the first page and half the second page left much to be desired, being mostly name-slinging and accusatory with maybe half of it being informative. Perhaps I just need to sit down and dissect the thread a bit better.

I am curious to know, if in a hypothetical situation where Burms and other tropical invasive snakes could actually invade the rest of the US, if the Lacey Act would even be an effective measure to controlling or getting rid of them? It seems an established wild breeding population of an invasive species would not be much affected by stopping transportation into the state?

[reptiledude987]

My question is how they plan to enforce this. If you cross state lines with an animal in your vehicle how would law enforcment even know. I've driven thru the states many times and never encountered a border patrol from one state to the next. At the end of the day it appears to me that people will simply BS their way around this law.

[Minkness]

Bignakegirl has a point...look at the crazy flying carp epidemic!

And as for BSing the law, yeah that will absolutely happen. However, if they start with banning transport, they may ban sales next. It's a trend of history to start 'small' and work your way up with limiting things.

[JWFugle]

So whats next? the law passed it will get in acted soon enough. USARK is supposedly trying to sue against it but who knows how long or how well that will work. :/

I personally plan on calling my states congress and state troopers asking about how or if they plan on enforcing this law and the options we have to overturn it. i know i will probably be put on hold for hours but better than sitting on my hands.

anybody have better numbers to call and people to actually talk to?

[Jrich]

I feel like this is going to create a lot of unintended consequences.

[FWK]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

First news I've heard of real signs of breeding, good to know! As you said, even if they're established they don't really have the ability to survive in the rest of the US, except maybe Hawaii, if they got there?

I'll leave the ecological information up to the experts, as I'm not experienced in this area, but that thread seemed to be rather argumentative, in many cases unnecessarily so, while also talking in circles. It did seem to at least show there are baby Burms in the Florida wild if nothing else, but at least the first page and half the second page left much to be desired, being mostly name-slinging and accusatory with maybe half of it being informative. Perhaps I just need to sit down and dissect the thread a bit better.

I am curious to know, if in a hypothetical situation where Burms and other tropical invasive snakes could actually invade the rest of the US, if the Lacey Act would even be an effective measure to controlling or getting rid of them? It seems an established wild breeding population of an invasive species would not be much affected by stopping transportation into the state?

You have to look past the flaming, those guys all know each other very well and that's just the way they communicate. There are countless threads on that forum on a huge variety of subjects those guys discuss with just as much energy. There is a lot of information and many points of view offered in the thread, and there are many more threads on the same subjects elsewhere on the forum. Keep in mind that it is a field herping forum, many diehard field herpers do not necessarily approve of people keeping reptiles and may even support HSUS. The subject of herpetoculture is often hotly debated as well.

I don't think the Lacey act would have much effect in your hypothetical situation, particularity with animals like Burms and Retics that are no doubt already kept in just about every state of the continental U.S. Hawaii is a different story, there are no snakes native to Hawaii and it is illegal to bring any snakes in. Isolated ecosystems such as islands are very vulnerable to invasive species of just about any kind. A bit of research into what feral cats have done to countless island ecosystems around the globe is proof enough of that, not to mention the Brown Tree Snake disaster in Guam. Now in a case like Brown Tree Snakes, which are not popular in the pet trade, the Lacey Act is actually a viable form of control. Brown Tree Snakes have been on the Lacey Act for a long time now, though I haven't been able to find out exactly when they were added. They were the only reptile on the Lacey Act before the constrictors were added three years ago. I don't know if Brown Tree Snakes would be a real threat to establish in the continental U.S. or if they were just banned as a knee-jerk reaction to the Guam situation. But I do know the constrictors were not added because they could become established in North America outside of Florida, they were added because "animal rights" groups (most notably HSUS) threw a lot of money at it. So much money that the FWS overlooked legitimate research and based its decision to add the constrictors primarily on this report, a report that has been widely discredited. There is hope still, USARKs lawsuit against the FWS has science on its side. The opposition only has millions of dollars donated by mislead bleeding hearts who thought their money was going to help the suffering puppys and kittens in the TV commercials. The law is blind to money, right?

Originally Posted by Jrich

Feral cats though....

Originally Posted by Jrich

I feel like this is going to create a lot of unintended consequences.

Agreed, and agreed.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I think some people were also talking about contacting celebrities who are known snake keepers or support the reptile trade. I feel getting into contact with a few of them and asking them to plug the fight, we'd get a lot of much-needed support. What do you all think, and how would we go about contacting them?

Originally Posted by FWK

You have to look past the flaming, those guys all know each other very well and that's just the way they communicate. There are countless threads on that forum on a huge variety of subjects those guys discuss with just as much energy. There is a lot of information and many points of view offered in the thread, and there are many more threads on the same subjects elsewhere on the forum. Keep in mind that it is a field herping forum, many diehard field herpers do not necessarily approve of people keeping reptiles and may even support HSUS. The subject of herpetoculture is often hotly debated as well.

I don't think the Lacey act would have much effect in your hypothetical situation, particularity with animals like Burms and Retics that are no doubt already kept in just about every state of the continental U.S. Hawaii is a different story, there are no snakes native to Hawaii and it is illegal to bring any snakes in. Isolated ecosystems such as islands are very vulnerable to invasive species of just about any kind. A bit of research into what feral cats have done to countless island ecosystems around the globe is proof enough of that, not to mention the Brown Tree Snake disaster in Guam. Now in a case like Brown Tree Snakes, which are not popular in the pet trade, the Lacey Act is actually a viable form of control. Brown Tree Snakes have been on the Lacey Act for a long time now, though I haven't been able to find out exactly when they were added. They were the only reptile on the Lacey Act before the constrictors were added three years ago. I don't know if Brown Tree Snakes would be a real threat to establish in the continental U.S. or if they were just banned as a knee-jerk reaction to the Guam situation. But I do know the constrictors were not added because they could become established in North America outside of Florida, they were added because "animal rights" groups (most notably HSUS) threw a lot of money at it. So much money that the FWS overlooked legitimate research and based its decision to add the constrictors primarily on this report, a report that has been widely discredited. There is hope still, USARKs lawsuit against the FWS has science on its side. The opposition only has millions of dollars donated by mislead bleeding hearts who thought their money was going to help the suffering puppys and kittens in the TV commercials. The law is blind to money, right?

A good point, I'll sit down a read it a bit more thoroughly. There was still a decent amount of conversation, just seemed saturated with bickering the first time around, so I'll keep those points in mind as I re-read it.

I didn't think so. I have heard that the Lacey Act has worked with certain species, but it was never explained how, so that explanation was great. I too hope that science will eventually win over the FWS, although I feel it may take some years. But that may just be me being pessimistic, although as you said, money talks. We just need to really push them and get as many people outside our hobby to help as possible imo. Compared to the people against us, we have a very small voice.