Does inbreeding really hurt anything?

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

At one point ball pythons were a difficult species to keep, breed and people wanted them. The original keepers who accomplished this goal of reproducing it in captivity probably had the same idea of "decreasing wild populations" and "further importation". It didn't really help did it?

I wasn't planning on commenting on this thread, but I do disagree greatly with the statement in bold.

It was not that ball pythons were difficult to breed. Its simply that there was not enough incentive at the time to put forth the effort to breed them in captivity....until say, 1986 (I think?) when the first captive-bred albino was produced. Then people started breeding them left and right. There was no secret code that we broke to breed BPs; it was simply that up until that point, it was cheaper to import and sell WC specimens than try to start captive breeding populations. The albino increased the general market value of normals (at that time, anyway), and it changed the game.*

But there was no grand delusions of conservation for ball pythons. It was all in the name of money and morphs.

NOTE: You are of course, correct in that it did not change anything about the numbers being imported.

*I do understand that this cannot be said about every species. I know there are a myriad of herp species of which albino specimens have been documented, yet a boom in captive breeding has yet to occur.
---
Now, before everyone jumps down my throat about having an agenda against the entire industry, please continue your discussion about line-in-breeding.

[formica]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

i agree completely mate.....


its all depends on which species

there are islands with limited bloodlines and as far as i know,the island populations don't have a high rate of deformed snakes


cheers shaun


cheers shaun

thats a great example of how inbreeding reinforces useful genes and kills off ones which are detrimental

but the problem with that kind of very closely related population, is that the small gene pool means they are far less likely to adapt to changes in their environment, the randomness found in wider gene pools is what allows a species as a whole, to constantly adapt to changes in its enviroment

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

In my opinion, yes, it does. You might not see any outward signs in one generation, but inbred snakes can have weaker immune systems, higher propensity for diseases like cancer and kinking, and subtle proportion abnormalities.

For example, inbred eyelash vipers tend to have larger eyes, under- or overbite, smaller heads, and tend to die young. I've seen some ball pythons with messed-up looking heads (weird snout shapes, eyes buggy, etc).

There are so many beautiful, natural variations in snakes- why intentionally do something that could decrease an animal's quality of life just to take a breeding shortcut or try to perpetuate a tiny pattern/color variation?

Just my $0.02, and I know it will not be a popular opinion, but I'm in it for the animals and their best interest.

I agree with you 100%. You are right, this is not going to be the popular opinion.

[franks]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I am speaking from a standpoint of captivity. Comparing the wild vs captivity is comparing apples to oranges. Not the same two topics so I refrain from that.

I think the two topics are related. All of our breeding cones from lines or a line of wild caught specimens. I have been looking into getting a hogg island boa. First off, they are almost extinct (they were believed extinct for about 10 yrs I think) but such a small island population must have been pretty inbred and trying to find a pure captive means it will be even more inbred. If i ever were to breed them I will be further inbreeding these snakes. This is why I think the question is relevant and crossed over. If a snake is inbred in its natural environment it will only be more inbred when coming to captivity.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

I wasn't planning on commenting on this thread, but I do disagree greatly with the statement in bold.

It was not that ball pythons were difficult to breed. Its simply that there was not enough incentive at the time to put forth the effort to breed them in captivity....until say, 1986 (I think?) when the first captive-bred albino was produced. Then people started breeding them left and right. There was no secret code that we broke to breed BPs; it was simply that up until that point, it was cheaper to import and sell WC specimens than try to start captive breeding populations. The albino increased the general market value of normals (at that time, anyway), and it changed the game.*

But there was no grand delusions of conservation for ball pythons. It was all in the name of money and morphs.

NOTE: You are of course, correct in that it did not change anything about the numbers being imported.

*I do understand that this cannot be said about every species. I know there are a myriad of herp species of which albino specimens have been documented, yet a boom in captive breeding has yet to occur.
---
Now, before everyone jumps down my throat about having an agenda against the entire industry, please continue your discussion about line-in-breeding.

I would have to disagree with you. I have spoken with with Roy Stockwell up here in Canada. Some KSB keepers know of him.

Anyway, he was the first to breed ball pythons up here. He has the pics too and the stories he's recounted many times on forums as well. He may have done it here...

My point is, if you read his stories, they were actually difficult to breed and no one really could accomplish it. As we know their wild caught imports to be, they are feeder finicky and go on long famines so many of them died and no one really could figure them out. He wasn't the first, just the first up here, but for him to do it he had a rain chamber and had to mimic the natural rainy season.

We look at how we do it today and realize all it took was some really snug fitting bins and some temps and voila we are where we are.

[franks]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I would have to disagree with you. I have spoken with with Roy Stockwell up here in Canada. Some KSB keepers know of him.

Anyway, he was the first to breed ball pythons up here. He has the pics too and the stories he's recounted many times on forums as well. He may have done it here...

My point is, if you read his stories, they were actually difficult to breed and no one really could accomplish it. As we know their wild caught imports to be, they are feeder finicky and go on long famines so many of them died and no one really could figure them out. He wasn't the first, just the first up here, but for him to do it he had a rain chamber and had to mimic the natural rainy season.

We look at how we do it today and realize all it took was some really snug fitting bins and some temps and voila we are where we are.

That is so interesting. So he built a rain chamber into his enclosure. That's pretty cool. When I kept royals I would get mine to eat by spraying down the whole cage and leaving a rat in. Do you have any links to these stories? Sounds like a good read.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by franks

I think the two topics are related. All of our breeding cones from lines or a line of wild caught specimens. I have been looking into getting a hogg island boa. First off, they are almost extinct (they were believed extinct for about 10 yrs I think) but such a small island population must have been pretty inbred and trying to find a pure captive means it will be even more inbred. If i ever were to breed them I will be further inbreeding these snakes. This is why I think the question is relevant and crossed over. If a snake is inbred in its natural environment it will only be more inbred when coming to captivity.

That's the point I was getting at. Atleast for several generations taking a very isolated and inbred population from the wild and breeding them in captivity would still be very similar. Sure, natural selection gets thrown out the window but wouldn't they still be able to handle inbreeding better than other non-isolated populations that often breed with unrelated animals? I'm only thinking this because the animals would come already resistant to inbreeding depression.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by franks

That is so interesting. So he built a rain chamber into his enclosure. That's pretty cool. When I kept royals I would get mine to eat by spraying down the whole cage and leaving a rat in. Do you have any links to these stories? Sounds like a good read.

I will find it from home. My work computer is filtering some of the content when I search for things on a forum.

[fedupdon]

Dr viper without wild caught we would have no cb don't fall in those cb herpers traps you can never change there minds there like the ones who think that all is right I. The world stand your ground and keep up the good work