Prices of reptiles dropping

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

imo there are very few very high quality Carpets produced,so they hold their prices,as they are very sought after, by people who want to produce ONLY the very highest quality hatchlings...

So all the other mediocre looking or normal looking carpets are not quality? Even if they are healthy animals that are able to reproduce? And would you say that the carpets in the wild, who look nothing like their captive counterparts are not quality animals? Again, it's how people define quality.

in the carpet world i have found these people do it for the passion and glory/pride of saying...look at this amazing looking Carpet ive produced,they do it out of their passion to create a great looking snake,not the money as they usually keep most of the best lookers for their own collections

And what do they do with them? They breed them to make money.

This is what I'm talking about. I hope this mentality doesn't plague other species. Can you imagine people collecting "Designer" monitors and stuffing them in boxes for breeding purposes instead of appreciating it's natural beauty? Why get 10 and put them in small enclosures when you can get 1 and give it a big enclosures? Trust me it's to breed and make money. Pride and glory for breeding good looking snakes? How about pride and glory for not being so vain? That would be a much more admirable cause.

no one wants to pay silly money for average or below average Carpets, also theres plenty to choose from,that many that some folk even give them away

You forgot to put "imo" infront of this statement. There are many members here who don't have "designer" carpets and are just fine with their acquisitions

[Terranaut]

Well I do not understand the nature of the comments above. Do you disagree with Shaun? And the last statement.... he never said average carpets are not great to have but would you pay $500 for a jag sib. If so please let me know. I will help you out People enjoy normal ball pythons but you wouldn't pay "silly money" for one would you? I doubt anyone on here would pay more than $50. Doesn't mean it won't be a great , healthy snake but it's monetary value is very little due to the sheer number and ease of availability. Shaun never questioned personal value of ownership of natural looking carpets, just the dollar value.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Well I do not understand the nature of the comments above. Do you disagree with Shaun? And the last statement.... he never said average carpets are not great to have but would you pay $500 for a jag sib. If so please let me know. I will help you out People enjoy normal ball pythons but you wouldn't pay "silly money" for one would you? I doubt anyone on here would pay more than $50. Doesn't mean it won't be a great , healthy snake but it's monetary value is very little due to the sheer number and ease of availability. Shaun never questioned personal value of ownership of natural looking carpets, just the dollar value.

By saying "you forgot to put imo infront of that statement" I wasn't referring to spending silly money on carpets, rather it was about what makes an average to below average carpet.

[Starbuck]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

So all the other mediocre looking or normal looking carpets are not quality? Even if they are healthy animals that are able to reproduce? And would you say that the carpets in the wild, who look nothing like their captive counterparts are not quality animals? Again, it's how people define quality.

There are many members here who don't have "designer" carpets and are just fine with their acquisitions

I am viewing this from a dog/cat perspective... I have a pound dog. She is a mix of who knows what, and cost me maybe 50$ in adoption fees. She is incredibly smart, and i have spent over 500$ in puppy classes, preventative care, toys, etc etc. The point here is it doesnt matter how much the animal cost, it is all about what the person buying it is willing to put into it (in terms of finances, love, care, responsibility, etc).

ON THE OTHER HAND: golden retrievers are one of the most popular breeds in the US. There are well bred, show quality lines, and there are backyard breeders looking to move some puppies for some extra cash (and a wide spectrum in between those extremes). One of those 'poorly bred' retrievers can make a GREAT family pet, if the owners are willing to put the time and care towards it... but it will still have a higher incidence of hip displaysia, behavioral issues, and will not conform perfectly to the Retriever AKC standard. This DOES NOT make it a bad pet... But when you are spending 1000$ for a show-quality dog from good lines, you are buying that promise of a good pedigree, free f congenital defects, hip displaysia, etc etc.

Replace every 'retriever' with 'Carpet pythons', replace 'show quality' with 'Gamma line/equivalent'.... etc.
The point i'm trying to make is that for these 'well bred' carpets, you are getting what you pay for. I LOVE my 20$ normal corns and kings, and i would put the same care into them as i would a 2K snake, but i know if i am spending that much in the first place i am getting a proven- quality animal...

hopefully that made sense

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

I am viewing this from a dog/cat perspective... I have a pound dog. She is a mix of who knows what, and cost me maybe 50$ in adoption fees. She is incredibly smart, and i have spent over 500$ in puppy classes, preventative care, toys, etc etc. The point here is it doesnt matter how much the animal cost, it is all about what the person buying it is willing to put into it (in terms of finances, love, care, responsibility, etc).

ON THE OTHER HAND: golden retrievers are one of the most popular breeds in the US. There are well bred, show quality lines, and there are backyard breeders looking to move some puppies for some extra cash (and a wide spectrum in between those extremes). One of those 'poorly bred' retrievers can make a GREAT family pet, if the owners are willing to put the time and care towards it... but it will still have a higher incidence of hip displaysia, behavioral issues, and will not conform perfectly to the Retriever AKC standard. This DOES NOT make it a bad pet... But when you are spending 1000$ for a show-quality dog from good lines, you are buying that promise of a good pedigree, free f congenital defects, hip displaysia, etc etc.

Replace every 'retriever' with 'Carpet pythons', replace 'show quality' with 'Gamma line/equivalent'.... etc.
The point i'm trying to make is that for these 'well bred' carpets, you are getting what you pay for. I LOVE my 20$ normal corns and kings, and i would put the same care into them as i would a 2K snake, but i know if i am spending that much in the first place i am getting a proven- quality animal...

hopefully that made sense

That did, however I am not talking about well bred snakes vs not well bred snakes. I'm talking about what defines quality. Some people define it as looks, and others have different definitions.

[formica]

as we know from the vast number of problems in pure bred Dogs and Cats, and more recent problems coming up in ''show quality'' reptiles, what is considered good breeding stock, may not actually be what the species needs to stay healthy and have a good quality of life. The purity of a line, is often completely counter to what is important for the quality of a genetic line, in terms of health, congenital conditions, suspectability to diseases. In terms of evolution, genetic purity, small genetic gene pools, are the best way to encourage extinction.

[Starbuck]

Ah, I see what you're saying. I guess that is pretty hard to quantify in snakes, who don't really have congenital issues like a lot of our mammalian pets, and we rarely hear about old age issues etc. I guess in that case i think it is important to breed for the betterment of the species or the hobby as a whole. You shouldnt juat throw 2 corna together because you have them... but i think it's impossible to get away fron line breeding and morphs in thia hobby, because that is such an integral part of the machinery... the reason people will pay over 5k for a snake is because it is something rare, that maybe hasnt been seen before, and represents a lot of potential (for future projects etc). I think the traits i just listed are a big component of 'quality' animals like carpets, such as the gamma line. If it wasnt heritable i dont think people would pay as much for them.l

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

but i think it's impossible to get away fron line breeding and morphs in thia hobby, because that is such an integral part of the machinery... the reason people will pay over 5k for a snake is because it is something rare, that maybe hasnt been seen before, and represents a lot of potential (for future projects etc). I think the traits i just listed are a big component of 'quality' animals like carpets, such as the gamma line. If it wasnt heritable i dont think people would pay as much for them.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

So all the other mediocre looking or normal looking carpets are not quality? Even if they are healthy animals that are able to reproduce? And would you say that the carpets in the wild, who look nothing like their captive counterparts are not quality animals? Again, it's how people define quality.

^^^^^^^^
yes its how people define quality,and i explained how Carpet keepers are with defining quality...

i am NOT responsible for how the market is,regarding what sells and what cannot be given away

yes mediocre Carpets are NOT high quality,and they should NOT be bred,as there is NO MARKET for them so WHY produce them in the first place ?

as they end up being sold cheap or given away to anyone that will take them...NOT MY IDEA OF A GOOD HOME

re quality
mediocre and below average looking Carpets are NOT quality....

for example...a cheap very basic no frills family car that still runs and drives ok,still does not make it a quality car...where as a Rolls Royce,Ferrari,etc always will be quality in the eyes of buyers, no ?

well its pretty much the same on the snake market,most folk strive to buy the best quality example they can afford,no ?




And what do they do with them? They breed them to make money.

^^^^^^^^
what is wrong with that ?

there is a good market for high quality examples...!!





This is what I'm talking about. I hope this mentality doesn't plague other species. Can you imagine people collecting "Designer" monitors and stuffing them in boxes for breeding purposes instead of appreciating it's natural beauty? Why get 10 and put them in small enclosures when you can get 1 and give it a big enclosures? Trust me it's to breed and make money. Pride and glory for breeding good looking snakes? How about pride and glory for not being so vain? That would be a much more admirable cause.

^^^^^^^^
re pride and glory
i should have used the word passionate to breed new and beautiful snakes,i agree i chose the wrong words



who said anything about Carpets being kept in boxes ?

all my adult carpets are in 4x2x2ft vivariums,hatclings are kept in 2x2x2ft vivariums,below are some of my tanks and will show how i keep my Morelia,so you know NOTHING of my mentality mate




below is the type of tank i use for hatchlings





^^^^^^^^
note,not a tub in sight

re Carpets
Carpets are semi arboreal,MOST Carpet keepers i know,DO NOT USE TUBS









You forgot to put "imo" infront of this statement. There are many members here who don't have "designer" carpets and are just fine with their acquisitions

^^^^^^^^
yes but those people are few and far between,for the MOST part an ugly or below average example will NOT sell,so the owner gives it away or sells it very cheap,just to get rid of it,again NOT my idea of a good home...!!


the op askwed WHY prices were dropping,i used my experience of the Carpet world to try and explain it.....

i have kept Carpets for MANY years before they became popular....

i watched the prices rise at the beggining when there were'nt that many Carpets available...

then after the masses got into them,i watched them being over produced by people,throwing any combination of Carpet together,just so they could say.....

LOOK I BRED A CARPET...

the market got flooded with undesirable looking Carpets that could NOT be given away.....

i am not responsible for how the masses think,i merely pointed out how it is here in the UK

cheers shaun

P.S.Please excuse the way iv'e posted,being a bit of a technophobe,i did not know how seperate the post i quoted,from some of my replys,some of my answers are in the quote and some are outside the post quoted...feel free to fix it if possible Wayne

[Mikoh4792]

There was no need to show us your cages. I was talking about monitors. Also I am not accusing you of stuffing snakes into boxes so no need to defend yourself.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

market saturtation and going through an economic depression = falling prices

imo only the very high quality snakes hold their prices

cheers shaun

It's my fault but after this comment we went off on a tangent about quality snakes. Let's stay on topic about normals. Unless you consider a morph animal to be "higher" quality than normals. That's a different story.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Well I do not understand the nature of the comments above. Do you disagree with Shaun? And the last statement.... he never said average carpets are not great to have but would you pay $500 for a jag sib. If so please let me know. I will help you out People enjoy normal ball pythons but you wouldn't pay "silly money" for one would you? I doubt anyone on here would pay more than $50. Doesn't mean it won't be a great , healthy snake but it's monetary value is very little due to the sheer number and ease of availability. Shaun never questioned personal value of ownership of natural looking carpets, just the dollar value.

^^^^^
thanks mate,you put it across just as i intended it to be,words ain't my strong point

i keep PURE and Morphs,but i would only breed if there was a market for my hatchlings...

why produce something no one or at least very very few people will want

i was Only explaining the market

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

market saturtation and going through an economic depression = falling prices

imo only the very high quality snakes hold their prices

cheers shaun

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

It's my fault but after this comment we went off on a tangent about quality snakes. Let's stay on topic about normals. Unless you consider a morph animal to be "higher" quality than normals. That's a different story.

my bad,thats me just noticed the op was talking about normal phase snakes.....

i stand by what i said though.....

a high quality example of a pure snake will always have a market,where a below average looking example will have a less desirable effect

i will explain it with pictures...

a very very sought after Jungle (not my snake,picture from another forum)


a not so desirable Jungle (less sought after,one of my old Jungles)



^^^^^
above is an example of a high quality and an average quality Jungle,there will ALWAYS be a market for the FIRST snake pictured,while the 2nd snake pictured would be hard to sell and go for a fraction of the price

cheers shaun

[Derek Roddy]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

market saturtation and going through an economic depression = falling prices

imo only the very high quality snakes hold their prices

cheers shaun

This is the truest statement in the thread.

And "high quality" doesn't mean morph or "high price".

I'll give you an example. I recently had a buddy of mine complaining that he couldn't sell his jungle babies from this last year. The adults are average...at best. He was asking 150 shipped per pair.
Meanwhile, I produced a clutch that I sold out of in less than 3 weeks for 600 a pair.
My adults are "much higher quality" (and when I say that...meaning they are the best of the best available...high black and very neon yellow)

So, it stands to reason that people want "prettier" snakes than they do...."average snakes". I know I do.
And, when I go to buy any new animal I have my eye on....I buy the best that I can find available because I know that if they aren't....I won't be able to move the offspring when the time comes.

Of course, That also includes whether I'll actually breed the animals because I don't put stuff together unless I know there is going to be a market for it.
That said, there is always a higher market for "higher quality" animals than there are for average animals.

Not saying that average animals don't sell because different strokes for different folks but, overall.....that is the standard in the market.

D

[Mikoh4792]

Sure no one is arguing against that. What I was arguing was people looking at normal snakes less valuably and ruining the hobby with morphs because of looks.

If we are talking about looks inside of a morph( a normal vs normal, pastel vs pastel) then it's an obvious that people will buy a better looking snake.

There was a bit of a misunderstanding and I admitted it was my fault for staying on a subject that was off topic.