Salmonella!

[formica]

Originally Posted by Toothless

Just an update...
The little one's feeling a bit better today, which is great.
The hospital called this morning and said they won't have the specific strain until later today, but that its a strain that's resistant to antibiotics so they prescribed me a different kind. The information I've been able to find does not state that the salmonella bacteria from reptiles is resistant to antibiotics- does anyone have any more information on if this is true?
They also scheduled me for an appointment with infectious diseases to try and determine the cause- apparently they investigate all cases of salmonella in infants.
I was also able to find quite a few posts by people claiming their children got salmonella off the same brand of formula I've been using- I don't think any of it was proven, but its something I'm looking into as well. I had just opened the container right before he got sick, and saved it just in case. I really hope its not from that though, as that would mean more children are at risk.

good to hear he's on the mend!

chances are, if its the formula, the company have already done a recall, check their website and see if the serial number and date matches any of their recalled units


hmm its a bit odd that they cant tell you the strain, but do know its resistant, did they say they know for sure, or are changing the antibiotics to be safe? Africa is one of the sources of resistant salmonella - hopefully u'll know for sure soon

[MDT]

So it sounds like what you are waiting for is called a "culture and sensitivity". It is not a "strain" of Salmonella, just the susceptibility of the bacteria (in this case, Salmonella) being killed by a certain antibiotic. The particular "strain" of the bacteria is done by DNA typing, usually from PCR (polymerase chain chain reaction). The sensitivity you are awaiting will tell you (as you mentioned) if you are on the appropriate antibiotics. Often times the initial course of antibiotics may need changing once the sensitivity is available. Many times we start a patient on antibiotics bases on what "should work" (empirically), but that may need "fine tuning" once the testing is completed.

If you were to have the DNA typing of the Salmonella done (which could be done) you could also get a cloacal swab from your animal and have that cultured. If they isolated a Salmonella species, then DNA typing on that would tell you if the two strains are the same. You could then know whether it came from your animal or the germ laden kid next door

If you are going to see an Infectious Disease doc, they will likely perform these tests to exclude a number of sources.

[Toothless]

It was the sensitivity test that they got the results from today, which is why they switched the antibiotics- he was on amoxillian previously. You are right that the doctors prescribed it while they were waiting to see what antibiotic would work best .
The test I'm waiting for apparently will be able to tell if it was from the lizard or not, but will not tell us a definate source.

[Toothless]

Originally Posted by formica

good to hear he's on the mend!

chances are, if its the formula, the company have already done a recall, check their website and see if the serial number and date matches any of their recalled units


hmm its a bit odd that they cant tell you the strain, but do know its resistant, did they say they know for sure, or are changing the antibiotics to be safe? Africa is one of the sources of resistant salmonella - hopefully u'll know for sure soon

I've looked at the supplier's website for re-calls, but there hasn't been any since last year. I'd still feel better having it tested though before feeding it again just to make sure. After reading up on the company though, I was shocked by the amount of recals the company's had in the past. I think I may be switching brands once he's allowed back on regular formula again.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by Toothless

The test I'm waiting for apparently will be able to tell if it was from the lizard or not, but will not tell us a definate source.

I'm not sure they *can* tell that without a cloacal swab from your lizard..What I mean is, they can say your child has Salmonella. What they cannot say definitively is where it came from without testing the suspected sources also. I can promise you that routine a microbiology test for the presence of a particular organism will not tell you the source.

[Toothless]

Originally Posted by MDT

I'm not sure they *can* tell that without a cloacal swab from your lizard..What I mean is, they can say your child has Salmonella. What they cannot say definitively is where it came from without testing the suspected sources also. I can promise you that routine a microbiology test for the presence of a particular organism will not tell you the source.

The way they explained it to me at the hospital was that there is a specific...serotype I think they called it...that is found in lizards and is not as likely to be in foods. I understand what you mean though. Even if it shows it came from a reptile, there's no proof it came from Toothless without further testing. Hopefully when I have my appointment with the infectious diseases they can do some further testing for me.
I was a little PO'd at the hospital though when they called earlier. I asked if the test results had come in yet, and she said 'you must be anxious for the results so you can make a decision on what happens to your lizard'...What happens to my lizard??? Seriously!? Its not like I'm going to throw him outside or give him away if I find out the salmonella came from him. It it did, it just means I have to be more careful. I think its awful that they look down on anyone with children who own reptiles.

[MDT]

Keep us updated and yes, the ID doc will be able to really unravel this.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Toothless

I think its awful that they look down on anyone with children who own reptiles.

Me too. We actually had a CPS (Children's protective services) social worker arrive at our home once demanding to see my snakes. Someone reported us as "having dangerous reptiles in the same house as children"

It was marked as unfounded after the inspection, since the snakes were all in enclosures, all harmless colubrids and my kids are freaking teenagers.

Also had a recent visit from local code enforcement expressing concern for my roach colonies and rats as unsanitary.

He had an orange do not enter sign all filled out on arrival to tape on my front door. Once I showed him my Dubia & Madagascar Hissers and the rats in cages, he tore up the sign and apologized.

[Toothless]

It definately is frusterating! I'm half expecting someone to come inspect my place if it turns out to be Toothless. I can't see how anyone could have a problem with him. He doesn't come out of the enclosure, and the doors are high enough that my older son can't even reach in there- although he knows to stay away from the lizard anyways but kids will be kids so you can never be too careful lol.
I did read yesterday that gerbils can carry salmonella as well, so its possible they are the source... I'm planning to call the hospital this morning if I don't get a call soon.

[Toothless]

A little PO'd right now... I called my family doctor today to see if the test results had come back in- the hospital said they would call, but I assume they have been busy and when I called to ask they said to follow-up with my family doctor. She didn't know where the tests results were, and said she wouldn't be able to understand them anyways as she's not very familiar with salmonella other than how to treat it- which is understandable.
So now I play the waiting game until I can get in to see the IDC. Just a little frusterated that I won't be able to rule in/ out Toothless until I see the specialists.
Up side of this though is that I found a better formula that's half the price . As soon as the little one's able to go back on regular formula, I plan to give them a try and see how he likes it. At least this unfortunate event came with an up side- I would never have considered buying anything else as I thought this brand was considered the 'best'. Will be nice if I can cut my formula bill in half .

[MDT]

So, really that doesn't change anything (or surprise me )....The good thing is that the antibiotics have been changed, that your child is improving, and now you're gonna be (prob just from paranoia overkill) extra careful...That's ok, just don't get freaky about germs. Wash your hands, especially after you handle the animals, keep eating surfaces cleaned with a good surface cleaner. If your kiddo is in day care, your culprit is most likely there quite frankly. It's all good. You'll link up with ID soon and get things sorted out.

[Toothless]

Yes, the we-one is feeling much better now- which is all that really matters. He's eating like a pig and will catch back up weight-wise very quickly.
I'm going to have to tell myself to be patient for now hehe .

[Toothless]

IDC called today (that was quick!!) .
They said the type of salmonella was Heidelberg. I have to fill out a bunch of forms tomorrow, but tonight she wants me to sit down and come up with potential sources.
Not sure is Heidelberg is associated with reptiles or not??? Guess its time to hit Google .

[thinkbig317]

I believe heidelberg is from raw meats. Dont quote me though....

[thinkbig317]

Glad your boy is doing better by the way! Broke my heart when i first read this....��