Adult snakes and heat pads?

[prairiepanda]

Originally Posted by kala83

that’s why for myself and any snakes I keep I am going to used lamps rather the pads....just don't really trust them

Were you using a thermostat with your heat pad? Any heat source can get too hot if it's not controlled with a thermostat. What you described sounds typical of an uncontrolled heat pad.

Also, I'd suggest an RHP rather than a heat lamp if you can afford it, because lamps make it very difficult to maintain humidity.

[serpentgirl123]

I use whatever works for me and my animals, which for now include: heat tape, heat pads, and bulbs. They are all use electricity and things fail. I have heard and seen pictures of heat tape/heat pads that have failed and some caused burns to the animals or burned through tubs and small/big fires but also the same with bulbs. One owner had one break and all the glass fell into the snakes' enclosure, causing lacerations when the snake crawled over it.

This is why I check on all the animals at least twice a day and double check the heating elements as much as I can. This is especially true with ceramic heat bulbs (mostly for winter), because there is no light coming off--I have to be extra diligent to make sure the ceramic bulb is still working.

[RAD House]

Kala I am curious did you have your heat pad on a thermostat? No matter what the type of heating element you use a thermostat should be used for the safety of the snake. I think it is presumptuous to call heat pads and tape, which are an industry standard, dangerous with out some sort of scientific study to back it up. Even though I took a heat transfer class I am not familiar with the idea of thermal blocking, but understanding materials I assume it is dependent many material properties. Without a complete understanding of all the variables related to said properties, how can you call what is pretty widely used across the community unsafe?

[kala83]

Originally Posted by prairiepanda

Were you using a thermostat with your heat pad? Any heat source can get too hot if it's not controlled with a thermostat. What you described sounds typical of an uncontrolled heat pad.

Also, I'd suggest an RHP rather than a heat lamp if you can afford it, because lamps make it very difficult to maintain humidity.

I found a thermostat afterwards but the one I got did not work so well and at that time I just had not been told told to do that at the right time. Need less to say this is going to all be remedied the next go around for new snakes.

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Kala I am curious did you have your heat pad on a thermostat? No matter what the type of heating element you use a thermostat should be used for the safety of the snake. I think it is presumptuous to call heat pads and tape, which are an industry standard, dangerous with out some sort of scientific study to back it up. Even though I took a heat transfer class I am not familiar with the idea of thermal blocking, but understanding materials I assume it is dependent many material properties. Without a complete understanding of all the variables related to said properties, how can you call what is pretty widely used across the community unsafe?

I am calling it unsafe not by my own words but by the words of the DVM that I took him into and that told me she had seen way to many cases of heat pads doing this kind of damage to snakes. And as I mentioned before, this just my opinion on the subject and I am totally open to the fact that I am newer to this and that I was not very familiar with thermostats and how they functioned up until fairly recently.
I know thast some people want to disagree with a veterinarians opinions on things. I literally had a guy that worked at a pet store here in town tell me that you should take what a vet says with a grain of salt for the most part cause they only study reptiles for about a semester at schoool.

Ok sure but they still went to freakin VET SCHOOL do you have any idea how hard it is to get into a vet school let alone pass. i have hear stories of kids that had straight A's all their life ball up in a crying fit after just there first few semesters. I am going to school for Veterinary Technican work, and maybe it just ingrained into me as a student nurse equivalant, that you got with with what the DVM says they have gone through the training and they deserve respect for what they are doing. AND DVM as wel as anyone in a veterinary office has to, renew their liceneses or certifications by furthering their educations so these people are not ignorant by any means.

Granted I will say this, that there are a few veterinarians that work with exotics in my local area.But there are not a whole lot that have direct reptile experince, and when I do think i did enquire with her about thermastats she told me her self...that she did not know that much about them and how well or not well they worked just cause she had worked with reptiles. But not a whole lot.

I mean the vet clinic that I go to told me that they did work with snakes often enough to know how to handle it so they suggested I talk to the big local pet shop here in town. And a few of those people told me that they did not use thermostats and that they had issues with them and they did not really like using them.

and like I said the one that I bought did not really seems to work that great.

But I am not really trying to argue that I think they are bad, I am just going off of specialists and professionals in my area that have given me their opinions and as I said before this is just biased off my opinion and experiences not based on facts I know that I could end up having a change of heart on things.

and I personally think I did not end up using a thermostat right away cause none of the pre or post research I did mentioned them and that was my bad. but Its not like I goofed up on purpose with it.

[dannybgoode]

I think there is a difference between something being outright dangerous and something being inappropriate.

Heat mats may not be dangerous per se and indeed for small snakes are very useful. However I maintain they are inappropriate for large snakes for the reasons I have detailed.

Animal husbandry evolves - certain practices that were common in the hobby a few years ago have been abandoned, new methods and practices have come along.

I also believe that as a reptile keeper it is my job to provide the best environment possible (a view I think is shared by most people here to be fair regardless of their thoughts on this particular subject) and I believe that for larger snakes some form of radiant heating is what should be used and I will promote this view when asked.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am pleased about the debate this has simulated.

[kala83]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

I think there is a difference between something being outright dangerous and something being inappropriate.

Heat mats may not be dangerous per se and indeed for small snakes are very useful. However I maintain they are inappropriate for large snakes for the reasons I have detailed.

Animal husbandry evolves - certain practices that were common in the hobby a few years ago have been abandoned, new methods and practices have come along.

I also believe that as a reptile keeper it is my job to provide the best environment possible (a view I think is shared by most people here to be fair regardless of their thoughts on this particular subject) and I believe that for larger snakes some form of radiant heating is what should be used and I will promote this view when asked.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am pleased about the debate this has simulated.

I admit when I brought home my snake Loki I was not really under informed about how to take care of reptiles but I certainly realize that I could have known more and handled the whole situation I am sure a lot better...which of course seeing is how what happened to him I felt horrible about. I think it had more of a sting to it cause I was trying to do research and be well informed and I was not doing a poor job on that but when you have several different view or opinions on things...when you are a newbie to the hobby it can make things a bit harder to handle.

but we are all human and we can all make mistakes, and that was what it was that happened with loki that’s why I am taking my time and doing A LOT more research before I bring another snake home again.

[EL Ziggy]

@ Danny- I agree with you on our ever evolving reptile husbandry practices. As we learn more we should do better. I also agree that most people here want to provide the best care possible for the animals we keep. My question is..beyond your opinion and beliefs do you have any facts, proof, studies, or professional references you can provide to support your assertion that uth's are inappropriate for snakes? I believe RHP's are the most efficient heat source in many cases but I've seen and used other heat sources effectively as well.

[MDT]

Zig's right dude. Your belief is awesome. You are prob doing a fantastic job w your animals. But so are a lot of other people with diff methods. Again, my current "N" is 8, and my outcome data is a thriving population (just as anecdotal as yours). I've used RHP's, CHE's, heat tape (at different times), all on thermostats. If you have a hypothesis that under the tank heat is not good for larger snakes, then set up a experiment and prove it. If you have studies, let's see the the data, etc.

[RAD House]

Kala we all make mistakes and I have made some with my snakes as well. I am sorry that yours led to demise of your pet. You need to realize that no matter the heat source with out a thermostat to control temperatures you are putting your snake at risk.

Danny I agree that care standards should evolve. You need to realize that what you are saying is only based on your opinion at this point. Your opinion may be based on knowledge, but there is no proof what you are saying is true to the specific case of reptile husbandry because there are far to many variables that are impossible for you to take into account. I would love to see some actual experiments or experience from many sources that support your data. Until you have more than just your personal opinion I don't think you can say what is better. Giving reason to why you use one method is different than saying it superior to the other method.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Kala we all make mistakes and I have made some with my snakes as well. I am sorry that yours led to demise of your pet. You need to realize that no matter the heat source with out a thermostat to control temperatures you are putting your snake at risk.

Danny I agree that care standards should evolve. You need to realize that what you are saying is only based on your opinion at this point. Your opinion may be based on knowledge, but there is no proof what you are saying is true to the specific case of reptile husbandry because there are far to many variables that are impossible for you to take into account. I would love to see some actual experiments or experience from many sources that support your data. Until you have more than just your personal opinion I don't think you can say what is better. Giving reason to why you use one method is different than saying it superior to the other method.

Got me thinking now about some experiments I could do but note I am no scientist!

I agree it's more of a subjective view at this stage but I am not the only person to hold it. I researched boa husbandry quite extensively and it is something that came up a few times. I also discuss my existing viv set up with the store I got my snake from which did include a heat mat and they affirmed it should go.

Once I can think up some experiments I can do at home I'll report back.

[Andy_G]

Heat pads/heat tape connected to a thermostat supplimented by room heat works great for racks and pvc. RHP's are a better choice if you're going melamine. I personally wouldn't use CHE at all but that's just a preference. Stay away from any lights or products that may sap humidity from your enclosures. I understand the thoughts and ideas trying to prove the contrary, and the fact that underbelly heat is only on the bottom of the animal, but we have to remember that we aren't talking about steaks on a grill that need to be flipped here...these reptiles have a circulatory system to help circulate heat absorbed by any method of contact throughout the body whether it is presented in the enclosure from above, below, the side, or the rear. Because of that, this thermal blocking using a book hypothesis is, to me, quite flawed. I have bred and produced multiple species, both temperate and tropical, all of which have thrived without overhead heat. No reptiles were harmed or bothered by this over the years. They did not have any digestive issues, egg binding, poor feeding response, or poor fertility. The one time I had to use a vet to treat a health issue was due to cancer and not caused by me. With 15+ years of keeping and breeding (I started breeding when I was 13 but have had reptiles of some kind since 4 years of age) that's enough proof for me, and I therefore don't regard belly heat as insufficient , dangerous, or improper by any means whatsoever. Nobody can convince me otherwise. There are many trends that come and go in this hobby, some that I am bothered by and some that I am not. A few years ago, f/t was the way to go and now it's a lot more live feeders (yuck). Used to be all racks but now everyone is doing displays (great, depending on the species and how hard the enclosures are to heat!). Now there seems to be an emerging belief that belly heat is insufficient for larger snakes (I have heard this from another source) where that wasn't an issue before for decades with professional zoologists, herpetologists, zoological facilties, and private breeders using belly heat. Also understand that mistakes happen and sometimes it is to the demise of your animal, and although unfortunate, it was probably a set up problem executed by the specific keeper (such as no thermostat) rather than a malfunctioning or flawed system that has been used for many many years by millions of people without problems. Just do what works for you, and observe your animals and how they are using their set up and modify accordingly, be it changing temps or by changing the method of heat you're using. Always be open to suggestion, especially if you are looking for help, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[prairiepanda]

Originally Posted by kala83

I literally had a guy that worked at a pet store here in town tell me that you should take what a vet says with a grain of salt for the most part cause they only study reptiles for about a semester at schoool.

Ok sure but they still went to freakin VET SCHOOL do you have any idea how hard it is to get into a vet school let alone pass.

In Canada it's actually harder to get into vet school than it is to get into med school, so I can totally understand the sentiment here. Vets absolutely deserve respect for their accomplishments and the expertise that they have demonstrated by completing vet school. However, graduating from vet school does not mean that they know everything about every animal they treat. Specialists who focused their degree on reptiles, and vets who also happen to be experienced reptile hobbyists, are good authorities on reptile care. But generalized vets who happen to be okay with treating reptiles are not experts on reptile care. They are experts on animal medicine, with a focus on mammals, but their degree does not indicate any minimum level of knowledge regarding reptile husbandry. I'm not trying to insult their intelligence or disregard their education, I'm just saying that even the top-scoring graduate from vet school is not required to know these things in order to become a great vet.

Consider this: the vet who told you that heat pads are dangerous also told you that she didn't know much about thermostats. Uncontrolled heat pads are absolutely dangerous. They are only safe to use when properly controlled with a good quality thermostat, just like any heat source. Since your vet was unfamiliar with the use of thermostats, her knowledge of heat pads applied strictly to uncontrolled heat pads.

That said, pet shop employees often aren't a good source of information either. most pet shops, especially very large ones, look primarily for retail experience when hiring their staff. Experience in pet care is not a requirement at all. The priority is having the skill to sell stuff. Staff are given informational leaflets from product manufacturers, and their answers to customer questions are then based on that. The way they care for their animals is also based on those leaflets. I've seen crested geckos being fed hard pellets, and baby corn snakes being fed crickets, because that is what the "care manuals" instruct the pet shop staff to do. There are some experience pet shop employees with some good advice to share, but they're definitely a rarity and you absolutely cannot assume that someone is knowledgeable about the animals they are selling just because they work in a pet shop.

The best information on husbandry comes directly from people who have years of hands-on experience with several reptiles. Forums like this are a wonderful way to connect with such people. There are certain points on which people will disagree, such as this heating issue, but you can asses everyone's arguments for yourself and use your own judgement to decide what reasoning seems best to you. In time you'll learn what works best for you. But the most important aspects of care, such as the use of thermostats with any heat source, will be agreed upon by everyone who has legitimate experience. Those are the parts that you need to pay the most attention to.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by prairiepanda

That said, pet shop employees often aren't a good source of information either. most pet shops, especially very large ones, look primarily for retail experience when hiring their staff. Experience in pet care is not a requirement at all. The priority is having the skill to sell stuff. Staff are given informational leaflets from product manufacturers, and their answers to customer questions are then based on that. The way they care for their animals is also based on those leaflets. I've seen crested geckos being fed hard pellets, and baby corn snakes being fed crickets, because that is what the "care manuals" instruct the pet shop staff to do. There are some experience pet shop employees with some good advice to share, but they're definitely a rarity and you absolutely cannot assume that someone is knowledgeable about the animals they are selling just because they work in a pet shop.

I'm lucky on this point as the store I now use is owned by two brothers who have owned and bred reptiles for 30+ years each and would rather not sell an animal if they thought that someone wouldn't look after it.

They have kept, bred and sold literally thousands of reptiles over the years.

They have a nile monitor for sale and I asked if I could buy it instead of the Eyed Lizard I went in for. I was joking but the guy didn't know that and he just gave me a flat 'no' in response as he knows I am no where near experienced to own one.

I trust their advice explicitly accordingly but you make an entirely valid point about general pet stores. One of the big national chains over here in the UK don't even stock thermostats even though they sell a variety of lizards and snakes.

I try not to buy from there even though they have a store right across the road from me. I'd rather drive across town and support the independent guys who do know their stuff.

Similarly there's another independent store where the guy knows his stuff but will sell entirely inappropriate animals for the sake of a sale. He'd happily sell say a yellow anaconda to someone who clearly had no idea what they were getting in to and I think that is just as bad, if not worse, than having clueless staff.

Stores as well as keepers have a responsibly to ensure that both owner and owned will be happy...

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by MDT

so would you define "bad for the animal" as growth of animal, vigorous feeding, pooping like there is no tomorrow, constant thermostat readings, and both vertical and horizontal thermal gradients that are consistent with the use of heat tape? just asking, because i'm using heat tape and i guess i'm doing wrong.

There is no difference in growth, feeding, or pooping between belly heat and overhead heat unless temps are insufficient. Or shouldn't be.

I have yet to figure out how to provide a thermal gradient with heat tape, however. The entire tub is room temp, except the area where the heat tape is. Hardly a thermal gradient, it's one extreme or the other.



I really want to see what kind of differences I see when I finally have all my animals off of heat tape (my biggest issue is belly heat is incredibly difficult to work with and it's very difficult to keep my husbandry within parameters). Some of those differences are:

-See if Sanji's belly splotches stop appearing. As of right now, only the portions of his belly that touch the heat tape flush pink. This is a recent development.

-See if Nymeria poops more often than every 3 meals.

-See if Sanji's weird twisted skin things stop appearing (I hear they are normal for the Epicrates genus but I'm still curious to see if it's due to a digestive issue).

I know I will see an increased average humidity level in all of my enclosures, as well as being able to more easily provide proper temps throughout the entirety of the enclosure.

[pitontheprowl]

Originally Posted by kala83

but we are all human and we can all make mistakes, and that was what it was that happened with loki that’s why I am taking my time and doing A LOT more research before I bring another snake home again.

So how is the heat source the problem here?
Lack of knowledge is what caused the problem.
Yours and the Vets...... Do you know how any days they spend studying reptiles? Unless they specialize in anything other than general pets (mainly dogs, cats and an occasional rodent) while in school its a couple weeks.
No I am not a vet but I do have several I consult with. It is actually sad how little training they get without specializing.