Rats

[ema-leigh]

It is really great to meet people who care for their feeders

I breed several different types of rats, but I'm slowly working towards all dumbo ears with either rex or double rex coats :]
If you want to check out my website to see the pictures of my rats its Home - The Rattery

[infernalis]

I just read over the site home page. Impressive standards!

[mykee]

I echo the sentiments of most here as well. I also breed rats to feed my large collection of pythons and find that most responsible breeders are concerned about the quality of life of their feeders. I love my snakes and have grown to love my rat colonies as well (still hate mice those bitey little pricks...) Regardless of whether or not they were born to serve a higher purpose, I have found over ten years of breeding rats that a happy rat is a healthy, large, good breeding, unstressed rat. I feed it a high quality lab-diet formula, and keep them on kiln-dried hardwood (Beta Chip).
I think it was very brave of you to come on here and somehow and to tow the line of getting your point across without being preachy. Bravo to you.

[annieb_mice]

Just saw your website, Emma, and I want to congratulate you on putting your rats FIRST and not the almighty trophy, ribbon, bragging rights, ect! You are right, there are a lot of people who look at rats as simply food... not caring much about their comfort, quality of life, ect... why bother, they're just snake food. I've kept rats as pets since I was a little girl and am always amazed at just how smart and friendly they are! I breed my rats for two things -- temperament and health. Everything else (colours, markings, ect) comes second. I have to work with these animals every day, and do NOT want to be bitten by a temperamental mom. I also want my animals to be as healthy as possible... the healthier my breeders are, the healthier and stronger their babies will be and the few vet bills I will have. (Yes, I do take my rats to the vet if I see any problems.)
As you see, many of the people on this forum, and other reptile forums, really do care about their pets and the quality of food their pets are getting. Considering some snakes are well over $1000 each, and some are over $10,000, it's worth it to have good food going into them!
I really do appreciate the time and courage it took for you to come onto a reptile forum and share your knowledge with us! Thank you! It's so nice to see a pet rat breeder try to out feeder breeders!

[Freebody]

hey annie do you ever produce hairless or double rex rats like waynes picture? If you ever do produce one would you mind letting me know? I think it would be sweet to have one as a pet. thx

[annieb_mice]

Hi Dave....
Yeah, I have those all the time. I'm working on breeding them OUT of my colonies, but they keep cropping up. (Note: I'm not working TOO hard as they are so darn cute and seem to be more sociable than fully furred rats. ) I'm also working a bit on frosted rats and blues...
Take care
Annie

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by annieb_mice

Hi Dave....
Yeah, I have those all the time. I'm working on breeding them OUT of my colonies, but they keep cropping up. (Note: I'm not working TOO hard as they are so darn cute and seem to be more sociable than fully furred rats. ) I'm also working a bit on frosted rats and blues...
Take care
Annie

"Streaker" (His name) is very gentle, never bit or anything. He is a nervous rat though, holding him seems to stress him out.

[Freebody]

sweet with any luck you will have a younger one when i pick up my next order in a couple months and ill take it home with me and set up a nice cage PS Streaker is a steller name lol i might have to go honor the little fella with a Streaker jr.

[ema-leigh]

Sorry I am just replying now, I've been so busy all week :]

I am moved by the kind feed back and how open minded/friendly your forum has been towards me and the subject raised. I am not a snake owner, but I am happy we can find common ground as animal lovers. Thank you to everyone who has put care and love into their feeders, they are incredible yet defenseless animals and may the good karma reflect in the heath and happiness of your reptiles.

Oh and happy thanks giving/halloween everyone!

[Freebody]

same to you ema

[candyraver69]

Just browsing around on the internet reading articles about the ethics of breeding feeder rats and stumbled on this.

Nice post Ema but I would like to add a bit.

Your everyday "grain mix" for rodents is not very nutritious. Sometimes it can be cheap, but its loaded with empty calories. Even by adding grain, oats, and barley from the feed store, this still isn't very good balanced food for rats, ESPECIALLY ones that are going to be a food source. Rats are omnivorous and need protein higher than grain mixes alone can provide, nuts and such are expensive and not found in these cheap mixes.

Your very best bet for food combining nutrition with cost effectiveness is going to be feeding a decent quality "lite" dog food, or at least mixing dog food with the grain mix. Something such as Nutro "lite" has a very similar nutrition content to Harlan lab blocks. Harlan lab blocks would be an ideal nutritionally balanced diet, but unless you are breeding feeders on a very large scale, getting it will be a pain since it's not sold in pet stores and getting it shipped in small amounts multiplies the cost of it exponentially.

I also have to disagree with the best "humane" method for killing. CO2 poisoning CAN cause burning if done improperly, but if the CO2 is introduced slowly the animal is anesthetized just as if it was being knocked out for a surgery. After the animal falls asleep a larger amount can be introduced to kill the animal in it's sleep. A very good article I found on the subject: Small Animal Euthanasia at Home

All of this is of coarse my hypothesis after my own personal research. I am not writing here to argue with what you are saying, but just add a bit of what I picked up through my reading to add ideas to the thread. Hope I am not offending.

[ema-leigh]

Well no your not offending me at all, but I do have to add that a lot of what you mentioned is actually not accurate. There is a TON of wrong info on the internet about rats.

Co2 burns whatever way you administer it to the rats. How can I prove this? Set up a Co2 Chamber (without a rat in there) even to a lower dose than normal then stick your face in it... your skin and eyes will burn. Its nothing like being knocked out for surgery.. if it were don't you think it would be a cheaper option than isoflurane - which is the only STABLE anestethic permissible to be used for surgeries. Theres a reason we don't use Co2! The sources you read on the internet were likely very outdated, or just plainly misinformed. The link you gave to small euthanasia at home does not mean its humane. This has been tried and tested and the vets use Isoflurane followed by lethal injection to the heart/stomach for a reason. Co2 would be a much cheaper option for them, but its not allowed by the board because the animals DO SUFFER!

The mix I posted is a very basic, but complete diet. Rats need CARB based protien, not meat based. Its a misconception to think grain contains no protien. Dog food, in which ever form is going to be hard on rats organs. Now adding a little bit to a mix is okay... (generally because most dog foods are poor quality and contain grains anyway) but its not okay to be fed full term (and the 'meat' protien in dog food is from a very poor source). Nuts and seeds are high in protien and oils, too much will make your rats itchy and their coats dull + greasy. A small amount will act as a supplement. I don't get what you mean by empty calories? These are carbs, packed with the nutrition thats rats are supposed to eat. Now if these grains were puffed cereal, or sugary then yes they would be garbage. But plain whole grains... thats what they need!!
Also canned veggies from your grocery store.. they'll really appreciate it and what are they like 77 cent a can?

Please if you want me to explain anything in more detail just let me know. I can provide links and scientific studies if you can read that sort of thing.

Harlan is a great lab block to feed your rodents. If anyone lives in Canada I know of a very reasonable distributor within Canada. (so no crazy import fees)
I'm in British Columbia and I got charged $66 to have a 33lb bag delivered to my door! Works out to less than $2 per lb (shipping costs included)
It can be frozen for up to 6 months before it slowly starts to loose nutritional value, and I mean very slowly so it can be used a month or so after the expiry date.

[candyraver69]

The information I read from is not just a few articles on the internet written by anybody and everybody. I have done my research. It is possible that our variance in opinion is due to locality, as you claim CO2 is not approved by the board for use. It IS approved for use here in the US and is used by many veterinarians, labs and animal shelters for most species of animals although certain species it is not. For that one I think we should just agree to disagree, and let each person choose what is best for themselves.

It is possible our variance in opinion about food is different for the very same reason. I don't know how things work there, but here the grain mixes available on the shelf of a pet store are very poor in nutritional content. It's not a matter of me claiming grain mixes are empty calories because I am under the impression grains don't have protein or nutritional value, it's a matter of the severe decline in nutritional value because of the nature it is processed, shelved, and distributed. Things may be very different where you live. I am also speaking in terms of a snake fancier trying to provide a healthy but low cost diet for rats they are feeding to a snake, not what I would feed my own babies who I plan to keep for 5+ years. I feed Harlan supplemented with fresh veggies and fruits to my babies, I think their diet is far better than my own.

Yes, canned veggies would be a great cheap supplement, make sure to pick one that is canned with plain water rather than salt water though as some types have it added to give flavor and high salt content is not good for them.

I can provide links and studies as well, and I would be happy to read from your studies. I am not closed minded and the more information on any given subject the better. Even people that spend their entire life dedicated to a particular thing are going to have different ideas and facts to display, it is the nature of science, study and research.

Thank you for providing me and the forum with your opinions and expertise on the matter, I think it's great for the pet community to be provided with a variety of ideas and theories to discuss

[infernalis]

CO2 is an awful way to die, but there is good reason to use it for feeders.

It's the only way to euthanize a large number all at once without contaminating the meat.

[Reptile_Reptile]

just a heads up ema-leigh said to use whole grains from the store like oats and such to supplement the diets like my local win-co has bins of oats and other whole grains and they sell it at a very cheap $/lbs ratio