What happens if you cross a carpet to a woma? (dialup)

[ravensgait]

What a Moron go back and read what you wrote !! Why am I not surprised that you are trying to talk your way out of the meaning of YOUR OWN WRITTEN WORDS. You could have at least said that you must have misspoken. Hey DA you asked where have I ever said that? Could probably find the same BS posted by you in any thread about Hybrids you have responded to, you said it more than once here.. Yep Ya Stick To What you say!! well Sh$! sticks to you. Hey if your quick you can go back and edit all your post so it jives with what you said LMAOROTF

See that is the problem with making things up as you go along, Ya have a hard time remembering what you said. What's really pitiful is that it's written down here and you just needed to go back and look. lol

Now you know as well as I do that you really don't know squat about hybrids other than the fact that you just don't like them.
Randy

[atropabelladona]

raven, YOU are the one who interpreted the list as a hard and fast rule applying to all hybrids. It is not, it is simply a list of trends that have degrees of severity on a case by case basis. Are corn x king x rat hybrids fertile? obviously yes. Are all hybrids (that includes non reptile hybrids since not only reptiles hybridize in captivity)? certainly not.

[ravensgait]

atropabelladona I didn't interpret it that way I know it's false.

The fact is as I and others have pointed out is that until these babies get older and it is known weather they are viable and can reproduce or not we just can't say one way or the other.

For myself and as others have said over and over again , the real problem I have is with Gregg trying to shout everyone down. Seems he feels he is right if he keeps after those who disagree with him till they get tired of his abusive ways and give up and leave the discussion. People seem to have the guy pegged right on the money but I for one will not bow to his nonsense.

I have stated my feelings and thoughts about hybrids a few times now. It's simple I don't think you Gregg or anyone else has any right to tell others what they can and can not breed. We all keep snakes because we want to and we all mess with nature if you wish to look at it that way. If you've bred any animals have you ever wondered how many would have survived in the wild? Would their parents even have met or survived themselves? Depending on the breed and location the survival rate varies but the rate of survival to breeding age for snakes isn't all that high. The point is we all mess with Nature but then again we are part of Nature. Yep Humans are part of nature seems most tend to forget this. So are these hybrid Woma/IJ's wrong ? I really don't know time will tell.

atropabelladona I've agreed with some of what you've said and other things well like Gene manipulation ??? what that has to do with the discussion I don't know these animals bred and were not created in a petri dish at least as far as I know.

By the way my name is Randy my user name is ravensgait, I write my name at the bottom of each of my post. Yours I don't know as you don't give it here so I write your user name.

I think the discussion of hybrids is very interesting yet I don't see intelligent discussion as much of a possibility in this thread.
Randy

[Gregg M]

There you go again with the name calling...... Like I said, you are not even challenging...... You have been found out Randy...... Everyone sees that you can not bring anything to the plate...... You have even gone as far to say now that I am editing my post and changing what I say.....LOL.... you are pathetic Randy...... It is obvious that others are seeing this...... You should see my IM bin with all the messages about you.....LOL

[atropabelladona]

Originally posted by ravensgait
atropabelladona I didn't interpret it that way I know it's false.

The fact is as I and others have pointed out is that until these babies get older and it is known weather they are viable and can reproduce or not we just can't say one way or the other.

I don't think you Gregg or anyone else has any right to tell others what they can and can not breed. We all keep snakes because we want to and we all mess with nature if you wish to look at it that way.

Ravens, what do you know is false? I'm unclear about that part.

So you're saying that if these snakes were deformed externally, say their bone anatomy was grossly deformed, then it would be ok? How would it be any different if their internal anatomy is grossly malformed? Viability to me is not just a measure of fertility but quality of life in captivity.

If someone is breeding snakes that have a high chance of being deformed, I think there is a right to protest at the very least. In this particular instance, the small gene pool of each of the parent species is being wasted by this breeding, as I've said before in previous posts. You want to cross a WC corn and king, you're not making a big dent in the captive population because the base is so broad. Unfortunately the same is not true of womas and carpets. We have a responsibility to breed them ethically and with respect for the small gene pool we've been able to keep.

[ravensgait]

Yep Gregg you keep proving what I said over and over and over again. Gregg it's called reading comprehension! here is what I said::Hey if your quick you can go back and edit all your post so it jives with what you said LMAOROTF:: Now I'll try to help you with what these plain simple words mean. If you wanted to you could go back to each of your post and find the little icon that says [edit] if you click on it you could then change the words in your post! That's real simple do you understand it now? As far as changing what you say well that's obvious.
Randy

[ravensgait]

atropabelladona it means exactly what it said. You could pretty much put anything Gregg has said in front of that statement.

As for the rest well you could what IF all day long, what if they grew wings? Guess we could call them dragons. As for the gene poll of Woma's well the animals belong to other people so no I wont tell them what they can and can't do with them and neither should you. Be like telling someone who just wants one for a pet that they can't have it if they are not going to breed it. It's not our business. Something you keep missing is that these are lower animals much less complicated than say Sheep, Horses or US. So the chances of problems like you mention are less.

Look at it this way my wife is pregnant , her first and she is 45 thus the chances of there being genetic defects and or deformities as well as complications are much greater than it is for a younger woman. Now are you here to say that just because the risk is higher she should have terminated the pregnancy? Don't say it's not the same thing because it is taking a risk with a living thing. Or how about people with genetic diseases that want to and do have children are you going to tell them that that can't because of the risk? I hope not.

Yet you and a few others here think that you should decide what someone can and can't do with animals that belong to them and you are going to tell me your right? Your not right, not today not tomorrow and not next year. Yes there are risk there are risk in any breeding you or anyone else makes. Now you or Gregg may find breeding to make hybrids personally abhorrent but your opinion gives you no right to tell other what they can and can't do.
Notice the name---Randy, in the furture use a name or I'll not respond, hiding behind a keyboard you can say whatever you'd like.

[M_surinamensis]

Look at it this way my wife is pregnant , her first and she is 45 thus the chances of there being genetic defects and or deformities as well as complications are much greater than it is for a younger woman.

Not genetic defects. Formative defects or pregnancy complications, sure... but NOT genetic defects.

Randy, something you seem to be missing here is that there's a big deiffernce between "can't" and "shouldn't" I have yet to see anyone, including Gregg say that another breeder CAN'T breed treat their animals as they see fit. What I have seen is a lot of "Shouldn't and here's why." There's a distinction between the two which is important to make. Now, you may want to go back through the last seventeen pages and pull up a quote or two where someone said "can't" but chances are that it'll either be taken out of context, have a kind of tongue in cheek tone to it or simply be a poorly worded sentiment.

What the debate is essentially about... is the ethical decisions behind such pairings, backed by some casual (seriously, it's a message board and most the people who probably read this thread wouldn't follow it if we went past the junior high bio level) science which explains the potential ramifications.

I also suspect very strongly, based off a few things you have posted that you have a kind of minimal understanding of the whole idea of taxonomic designations and basic evolutionary theory. Which is fine, no big deal, it can be explained... but you're arguing some points which aren't exactly the ones you should be sometimes and are critical of things which can be cited as established situational fact.

Beyond AAAAALLLLL that... Yes, there is some validity to the idea of voicing a strongly evidenced opinion about a subject such as this which has aftereffects and ripples across entire captive gene pools even when the animals involved are not the personal posession of the ones forming the opinion. What NERD does today *might* affect snakes I want to buy in five years and so the involvement is very personal and absolutely legitimate.

I also think there are certain moral lines which CAN be drawn as near absolutes (as long as it's not a discussion specifically about comparative morality) within a specific culture. I doubt anyone registered on ssnakess would disagree with a statement that animal abuse or neglect is wrong... the argument centers around what constitutes abuse or neglect. The sheer unrivaled irresponsibility inherent in commercial production of hybrids *in this manner* is so mind boggling obvious to those who understand the potential outcomes that there really is no question. This is why you're getting such staunch arguments. Hybrids, venomoids, cutting the tail off an iguana so it can't whip... these are all equally negative and reprehensible, the strength and conviction of people like Gregg and Atropa (incidentally a very intelligent young woman who's a bio major well on her way to doing something important and excelling in her chosen field) is going to reflect this.

If you want a taxonomy 101 primer and a little brief genetics lesson, they can be provided. But to argue that human blood type incompatability is identical to fertility issues... or that your wife's late pregnancy increases the chances for genetic defects... these are simply ignorant statements that show a lack of education on the subject at hand.

[gonesnakee]

To only accept the facts that support your claims only proves how pathetic your moral/ethical judgemental opinions of others really are. Flame On! as thats all you (Gregg) have basically done since the threads beginning (the odd useful tidbit, but not many). Thought by now you would have lost interest & started a member picture thread to show us the Great Judgemental One in all his vainglory LOL Mark
P.S. glad to see that "some" of the other folks (both sides, I like M. suri's posts) can still provide something worth reading that could actually be considered relevant to the actual topic of Hybridizing snakes. Anyone openminded enough to want to share my actual info & observations in reguards to the Hybrids I have worked with as a mature adult can feel free to contact me whether you like them or not. Name callers & judgemental 1's can continue to "Flame On!"

[mbayless]

Hybrids in nature occur naturally - we see them ever so often, and in zoos and private collections it is almost always about $$$. When naturally occurijng hybrids occur, they are not often 1) real valid species; 2) are valid species - with hybrids often sterile; 3) are lies from the personages who claim such hybrids; 4) the breeder(s) are sincerely convinced of their breeding, but are wrong; 5) its 99.999% about money, and with money, people are often disingenuous.

I don't know enough about these hybrids - but I would like to see detailed courtship/mating dates, egg deposition dates, incubation temps, incubation humidity, = breeding specifics. IF the person cannot supply such basic data for such a monumental event, I bet they are lyings through their teeth, and that these are merely something bizarre and perhaps not often seen in captivity, but where they live, common as dirt.... so do your detective work - and I betcha 9/10 this is a hoax - and if they should be valid hybrids, I bet they are sterile especially from two distinct species as these - and as Gregg M. said, feed them off to a Water monitor (Varanus salvator). A simple genotype could check this validity if the owners want to prove their authenticity - along with 'detailed' breeding data -
mbayless

[ravensgait]

Where did I say blood type compatibility is the same? I used it as an example showing that in our own species which is a far more complicated organism, that there is incompatibility. Gee as I've said before the fact that they bred and reproduced sure seems to point to them being not really all that removed from each other. As for the rest we'll just have to wait and see how they do. You don't like it fine but when you and Gregg think you can show your righteousness by shouting others down and trying to run them off the thread then yeah I have a problem with that.

As I've said before about this cross your not right I'm not right we'll have to wait and see

As for shouldn't and can't well lets see when someone says something once You, Gregg, What's her name. All made your opinions known in your first post. As you have in other post on the subject so why did you feel it necessary to voice it again? Why was it Necessary to be rude and insulting to others Gee I remember your first post to me. And when others respond to you the same way you act all offended. Remember who it was that stated they wanted to kill these animals? You and Gregg wanted to kill them ,now that sure seems like you are definitively saying that Nerd should not of done this breeding and if YOU could you would have stopped them. So Like I mentioned to Gregg if and when you are in the position to say can't(lord help us) to those who want to breed what they want too, are you now saying that you wouldn't tell them they can't! You can play on words all you want but yes you three have been saying Can't.

You go after others because they say it's none of your business what NERD or anyone else breeds, you call them pro hybrid and accuse them of being stupid and uninformed, or in my case you wanted my name as you were sure I was someone else yet I gave you the info and you disappeared for a while , no oops I was mistaken just poof.

The facts are we don't know how these babies will do, the facts are that many hybrids work out just fine others are so so and still others are disasters. Some keep saying these are different species . To be honest I really don't care if they are or not, it really doesn't matter. They bred and now we'll see just how closely related they are. It's been done so get over it.

Moral lines??? your morals and your welcome to whatever you feel they should be but don't tell us what we should believe. And that's just what you have been doing trying to convince everyone else that your have the right moral convictions . You can believe whatever you wish to I don't care but don't try to convince me that you or Gregg are here for the welfare of this litter of hybrids you've already stated that you wish they were dead! yep wanting to destroy someone else's property or animals that shows Moral conviction. Just as people blowing up abortion clinics shows their moral convictions. My way or the highway or in this case die!

By the way yes it does increase the likelihood of any possible genetic problems that my wife or I may have in our makeup showing up in the child. Gee I was there for the amnio and talked to the doctors. Talk about Ignorant We all have things in our genetic makeup that we really hope never come to the for front. Buried in your genetic code are defects or abnormalities that your ancestors had.

You dislike hybrids OK fine by me but as a few people have pointed out why do you feel it necessary to point out your feelings on this subject time after time? We heard you the first time. Yep you can post whatever you like to but then don't get all offended when your told to blow it out your ear. Did yours and Gregg's comments and your stating you wanted the animals dead add anything positive to this thread? Nope it just offended people that you feel that way and they told you so. The person who started this thread posted photos for all of us to see and you guys ran them off the thread. Now what was that about morals?? Nope we could have learned more but instead you had to point out the higher moral ground you think you stand on.
Randy

[ravensgait]

mbayless I tell ya what put up the bucks for a DNA test and I'll bet they have one done.
Randy

[dr greenlove]

I have been reading this thread with interest, and have seen a lot of arguements for and against.

It ultimately comes down to whether or not you think the risks are worth it...and it is clear that there are risks.

To use a quote provided by Ravensgait...

Originally posted by ravensgait

The facts are we don't know how these babies will do, the facts are that many hybrids work out just fine others are so so and still others are disasters.

Quite simply if you accept that there may be risks (or even disasters) with crossing two different species then it cannot be ethical to do it.

Can it?

[atropabelladona]

Ravens, I registered only to post on this thread. I frequent plenty of other posting sites (most of them not as popular as say kingsnake or fauna) but you can find me on reptileforums.com if you wish. That is why I didn't give my name, because I'm aware that this thread wasn't started anywhere else by one of NERD's representatives. If you think threatening me with not responding to my posts if I don't attach my name to it is going to get anything but a good laugh out of me, you're flattering yourself . People here know who I am, I'm just not putting my name on here because I'm not planning on getting this involved in every other thread. Now onto less trivial things.

Please clarify how you're using human blood types to show incompatibility. Blood types are exhibited as a phenotype (click HERE for definition ), and have absolutely nothing to do with genetic inviability of children. Any person of any blood type can have children with anyone else of the opposite gender with a different blood type.

Personally I have a hard time doing taxonomy/cladistics, but I recognize its importance. Without (human imposed) classification, there would just be a bunch of snakes being sold as "snake that looks like so and so" with no real basis for comparison. Everything would be apples to oranges, no one would be able to keep track of the natural history of the snake, which is kind of important when you take into consideration dietary and environmental needs, etc. You SHOULD give just the slightest bit of notice as to what species an animal is, for that reason alone.

As for your wife being pregnant at 45, congratulations. The reason there are potential genetic problems with children of aging parents is dependent on the age of each parent. Older females have eggs that may have mutated excessively because in human females, the eggs are formed while the embryo is undergoing development, up until prophase I, during pachynema if anyone's interested, where they stay with the chromosomes in homologs in the nucleus, crossing over for years and years until the time comes that the body signals the development of 30 or so eggs per mensis. So your wife's genes have literally been crossing over and mutating from her somatic cells for 45 or 46 years, and the longer they cross over, the more likelihood of having a problem at a cross over point, between non homologs, etc. Think of it this way, the longer you role a pair of dice, the higher the likelihood of getting snake eyes. Something like that in terms of probability, is about as good as I can do without defining every term I've used.

Anyway, back to hybridization. I still maintain it IS our business how well known members of the community- either through their business practices or newsworthy mishaps - represent us to other facets of science, and to the general public. Inbreeding and hybridizing to the point of potential internal OR external deformity is sickening and unethical to me. I don't want people like that putting their face on herpetoculture. The "don't tell me what to do with my own stuff" excuse doesn't fly with me. People aren't allowed to abuse their own kids and animals just because they are legally responsible for them. There are ethical obligations to act in a certain way towards our pets (even if you don't consider your reptiles your pets, the law does).

You never answered my question, by the way. If one of these hybrids is necropsied and found to have deformed internal anatomy, would you still say its ok? Despite having a quietly excruciating existance?

[Jeff_Favelle]

That is why I didn't give my name, because I'm aware that this thread wasn't started anywhere else by one of NERD's representatives

General Python forum on Queensnake had the EXACT same thread started the same day as this one. Pretty sure.