What happens if you cross a carpet to a woma? (dialup)

[atropabelladona]

Originally posted by LdyDrgn
I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "super low hatch rate is an indication" bit. Mainly because there have been people all over the world trying to breed certain species (Indigos, Cribos, Tiger rats just to name a few) and have had very limited success because temps and humidity have been very wrong during incubation. Not hybrids... pure blood to pure blood... and LIMITED SUCCESS. Dead offspring in the eggs, badly deformed babies, or the eggs just die. Should we take that as a sign that they should not be bred or should we keep trying until we get it right?

I could have just as easily quote ravens, but I prefer the non run on sentences, didn't want you to think I was picking on you, michelle.

Anyway, I'm going to use an analogy here. Say person A gets cancer because they expose themselves to carcinogens, and person B gets cancer because its familial. They both get cancer, but they get it from different sources.

You can say the same thing about this hybridization. If the parent animals had been bred before and previously produced viable non hybrid offspring, and in this breeding 5/21 survive, can't you infer that there is something profoundly wrong with the development of the embryos?

Embryonic termination (slugs, miscarriage, stillbirth) is nature's way of preventing severe developmental (either from genetic defects or environmental factors) problems from progressing. That being said, pairings of the same species that throw slugs either indicate one(or both) of the parents is genetically or environmentally - such as an immature female not having enough calcium to grow as well as develop young.

A pairing from disparate species (when the individuals are previously fertile) is a clear indication that the genetic defects are too many to be overcome during development.

*EDIT* I meant "pairings of the same species ... indicates one (or both) of the parents is genetically or environmentally deficient, or in the case of most reptiles, the incubation conditions aren't within acceptable parameters.

[ravensgait]

atropabelladona you said
(either from genetic defects or environmental factors) what you said above may or may not apply to these offspring. Anyone can infer what ever they want to! We simply have no idea as there have been no test performed on these animals. The facts are that the two animals reproduced and it was thought that they could not or if they did there would be no viable offspring. Two out of three assumptions have been shot down and the jury is out on the third.

We might know more but for whatever reason they have given us no further information. Might be because the attitudes of some who have posted here. Either way the jury is out on this one.


There are many other factors that influence the outcome of a breeding as an example in humans there are blood types that can't be mixed and last I checked we are all the same species.

Wouldn't be the first time that the supposed scientific facts turned out to be less that factual.

We know now that a Woma and a Carpet can breed and produce young. Is it possible that one of each could become isolated together in the wild and reproduce? My guess now would be yes, it has happened many times before with other species. Time will tell if these babies NERD produced will be healthy and be able to reproduce themselves.
Randy

[Jeff_Favelle]

Is it possible that one of each could become isolated together in the wild and reproduce?

Not an IJ and a Woma. They aren't even on the same CONTINENT.

But certainly Womas and mainland Carpets. Southwesterns (imbricata) have a range that overlaps (whether or not the habitat or breeding schedule does, I don't know). Inland's (metcalfi) overlap about 30% of their range as well. Couple of the Antaresia's do as well.

[ravensgait]

Jeff it was hypothetical you know each books a voyage on a cruise ship. Both ships run into bad weather and sink. Both animals cling to debri from the ships and wash up on the same island with a case of Vodka. Next thing ya know the island is crawling with little drunken hybrids.

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL!

[M_surinamensis]

There are intrinsic isolating mechanisms that prevent hybridization in the wild.

A species is defined as a naturally interbreeding group of animals. It's obviously a slightly muteable definition if one accepts the idea that populations can evolve to meet different microenvironmantal conditions and eventually become distinct groupings. However based on the very definition of the word, hybrids do not happen in nature. When they do happen, it requires reanalysis of OUR definitions of a species.

The thing here though, that must be realized is that there is a LOT more to natural selection that interspecies fertility in a captive situation. Corns overlap with several species of kingsnake... never once been a single wild hybrid found. Womas overlap with the edges of most the mainland carpet species... how many natural hybrids have been produced? Huge fat zero on that score too.

It's risky business talking about absolutes when dealing with nature however we can talk about what has and has not been known to happen. To this point, there has NEVER been a cross between ANY of these species which are being lumped together in captivity by money grubbing fools. There's no scientific merit to the pairings (an argument I have heard used in the past although not specifically by NERD to justify hybrid creation) and their creation is certainly a personal ethical decision... except for the fact that the very existance of such a hybrid poses a legitimate danger to the entire captive population for the parent species.

It's also been stated several times here that hybrids might form the basis for a new species... hasn't happened yet and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it never will. Unsuccessful species die out and get replaced. They do not go looking for extraspecies nookie; once populations are distinct and not interbreeding, they are seperate species. Once they're a seperate species they do not go backwards. It's always changing forwards, always branching. That's simply the way it works biologically. Once in a while WE may have made an incorrect determination about populations with a narrow zone of infrequent intergradiation but that's a mistake in our observations, not what's actually happening.

[atropabelladona]

Originally posted by ravensgait
atropabelladona you said
(either from genetic defects or environmental factors) what you said above may or may not apply to these offspring. Anyone can infer what ever they want to! We simply have no idea as there have been no test performed on these animals.

There are many other factors that influence the outcome of a breeding as an example in humans there are blood types that can't be mixed and last I checked we are all the same species.

Ummm you're wrong again. During gestation, there are only two things that directly affect a developing embryo, the genetics of the fused gametes, and the gestation conditions, i.e. if the mother was able to provide the correct amount of calcium, etc.

Secondly, human ABO blood types can only "not be mixed" during BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS. Say you have a type A person and a type B person (I'm referring to blood types here not personality types). There is NOTHING to prevent those two people from producing children with type A, type O, type AB, or type B blood depending on the genotypes of the parents.

[gonesnakee]

Todays Tidbits: Jungle Corn that laid monday (a F3 albino bred to F1 & F2 albinos) 17/17 perfect eggs, Jungle Corn that laid today (a F1 het albino bred to F1 & F2 albinos) 19/19 perfect eggs. Very low fertiltiy happening here in this particular Hybrid thats for sure LOL Hatch rates in the past years have always been around 85-90% for the Jungle Corns & all the other snakes I have ever bred for that matter. I don't use incubators (except for Pythons), but just fish boxes on the shelves in my snake room ("high tech" LOL). I'm sure the hatch rates would be higher all round with more precise incubation temps/methods though. These "assumptions" that all Hybrids will have the same problems (if any at all?) in reguards to fertility/hatch rates are BS. Each Hybrid type has to be looked at individually, as per most things no blanket rules apply, despite some folks unfounded claims. As orginally stated in reguards to this particular crossing (IJ X Woma) only time will tell, Cheers Mark

[Gregg M]

No one ever said ALL hybrids will have fertility problems..... That is just one of the many things that can go wrong depending on what bonding points on the DNA strand do not bond.... I even stated that a few hybrids do not have any problems on the outside...... It is the mess hybridization causes on a molecular level...... You know, the stuff you cant see with the eye.....

You are a hybrid producer so everyone knows why you are typing down your pro-hybrid views and trying to mute the proven problems with hybrids.... You make hybrids sound good so you can sell off your tainted, gentically weak stock..... It is very clear..... You are unethical and irresponsible, and obviously do not care about the captive stock or the future of pure bloodlines and this hobby.....

[ravensgait]

atropabelladona Wrong?? There are many factors that influence an embryo before and after the egg is laid. The health of the parents IE the nutrients in the yolk, bacterium that can enter the egg before the shell forms and even after the egg is laid, or twins ETC ETC. There has been a lot more research done on birds than reptiles, and like in so many things there are a number of questions to why things happen.

People with type O blood are universal donors but can receive only type O, those with type AB are universal receivers but AB type can not be given to any other blood type. The point being that in our own species there are vast differences though we are a much more complicated animal than reptiles.
Randy

[ravensgait]

Gregg that is a really Lame reply to gonesnakee, here someone with some real personal experience with this subject post about his experiences with hybrids and guess what ? He gets attacked by you. You need to go back and read you post to answer you own question.
Randy

[Gregg M]

That was not an attack..... It was a truthful observation...... It is a fact that if someone produces hybrids, they are being irresponsible and do not care much about the pure bloodlines and the health of captive born neonates.....

[atropabelladona]

Originally posted by ravensgait
atropabelladona Wrong?? There are many factors that influence an embryo before and after the egg is laid. The health of the parents IE the nutrients in the yolk, bacterium that can enter the egg before the shell forms and even after the egg is laid, or twins ETC ETC. There has been a lot more research done on birds than reptiles, and like in so many things there are a number of questions to why things happen.

Um how are all of those things not covered under "gestation conditions" ?

And tell me why blood transfusions have anything to do with a discussion on hybrids? The genetics of blood types and subtypes are clearly not an example of hybridization.

[ravensgait]

Here ya go Gregg since you have trouble remembering all the stuff ya make up I'll help ya out.

Originally posted by Gregg M
No one ever said ALL hybrids will have fertility problems..... That is just one of the many things that can go wrong depending on what bonding points on the DNA strand do not bond.... I even stated that a few hybrids do not have any problems on the outside...... It is the mess hybridization causes on a molecular level...... You know, the stuff you cant see with the eye.....

You are a hybrid producer so everyone knows why you are typing down your pro-hybrid views and trying to mute the proven problems with hybrids.... You make hybrids sound good so you can sell off your tainted, gentically weak stock..... It is very clear..... You are unethical and irresponsible, and obviously do not care about the captive stock or the future of pure bloodlines and this hobby.....

Now here's another quote from Gregg this is just one of at least a few times he's said this:
Hybrids are known for.....

Low fertility...... FACT

Low hatch/birth rate...... FACT

Low % make it through the first year...... FACT

Muscle and bone structure deformities....... FACT

Internal organ deformities and failure........ FACT

Misplacement of internal organs and other soft tissues..... FACT

Brain damage and other neurological problems...... FACT

If you look at some hybrids, you can see problems right off the bat....... Bugged out eyes, misshapen heads, and even scale deformities...... If that is going on, on the outside, just imagine what is going on that you cant see......

Another Quote from Gregg:::

Atleast I stick to what I say...... Talk about having your head up your rear....... LOL ::::

Yep you stick to what you say LMAO and hows your colon looking.

__________________
Sure seems to me like you are saying for a fact that they have low fertility.

Now as for your attacking the guy well you may not feel you are but it's funny how upset you get when people speak to you in the same manner here.
Randy

[Gregg M]

OK, so you quoted my posts and not once do I say ALL hybrids are infertile..... Again, those are some of the problems that go hand in hand with hybridization..... All you did was quote proven facts about hybrids..... So, once more, where did I say that any one of those issues happens in ALL hybrids????

You need to bring something more to the plate when you quote me..... Man, how many times do I have to swat your quotations and logic down???? I am actually pretty bored with you already.... You are not even challenging....

Like I said, I stick to what I say.....