Monitor enclosure discussion thread - Page 13

Lankyrob · 07-10-12, 04:23 AM

I know all monitor discussions go down this route but isnt internet bashing someone who isnt even on the forum to answer the accusations levelled at him pretty childish, pathetic and not worth the time or effort??

crocdoc · 07-10-12, 04:41 AM

Not if it gets a point across, Lankyrob.

Many people take his every word as gospel and when the Moes of the world start talking about what wild monitors do and don't do (based on his claims) here on this forum it's the start of an insidious creep of his nonsense into yet another forum so excuse me for wanting to nip it in the bud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

... isnt internet bashing someone who isnt even on the forum to answer the accusations levelled at him...

Because Moe's mate would never do that, right? Lol.

Lankyrob · 07-10-12, 06:28 AM

Unfortunately in my opinion it wont get you point across, all it does it makes it seem like you have personal issues with someone and that clouds everything that you are saying.

Just stick to either facts and/or your experiences and let people make their own minds up who to listen too without the accusations and pettiness. If you are correct (and i believe you are) then that will speak for itself.

KORBIN5895 · 07-10-12, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarich

A very good thing to remember for those of us with that information. HOW it is presented is almost as important as what is presented. No one was ever taught how to use a shovel by being bashed in the face with it.

Actually they would learn how to use that shovel as the true weapon it could be.... just sayin.

infernalis · 07-10-12, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

Unfortunately in my opinion it wont get you point across, all it does it makes it seem like you have personal issues with someone and that clouds everything that you are saying.

Just stick to either facts and/or your experiences and let people make their own minds up who to listen too without the accusations and pettiness. If you are correct (and i believe you are) then that will speak for itself.

On this particular subject Rob, I simply cannot allow "his" misinformation to propagate at ssnakess...

I care way too much for these lizards to permit one snippet of that garbage to make it to the members here who are trying to get things right.

KORBIN5895 · 07-10-12, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

On this particular subject Rob, I simply cannot allow "his" misinformation to propagate at ssnakess...

I care way too much for these lizards to permit one snippet of that garbage to make it to the members here who are trying to get things right.

Please point out this garbage Wayne because I misses it. Also it's not that we feel his garbage should be allowed but those are quite the lengthy post against Moe just to refute a some garbage.

infernalis · 07-10-12, 07:17 AM

OK, this is spiraling out of hand.

No one is bashing Moe (a member) disagreements in husbandry techniques are standard in forums.

The person in question has not been named, even if we all know who it is.

So should those of us who know better just sit and allow "cut and paste" (it's pretty darn close) of this psycho babble to sit on a forum read by a rather large audience to remain unchallenged so that some new person can absorb it and possibly use it?

I should hope not.... Goes against everything I stand for.

StudentoReptile · 07-10-12, 07:34 AM

I personally do not have a dog in this fight, other than a general care for the well-being of the animals (in this case, monitors). I have this thread, and others, as well as a handful on Varanus.net. Here my thoughts:

There is a difference between bashing misinformation and inaccurate advice, and bashing the actual individual who is guilty of such. I admit, the line separating the two can be blurred, but there is a distinction. The way I see it is that Wayne, Crocdoc, and others are very passionate about monitors, and as well as the best possible ways to care for and propagate them in captivity. Likewise, as passionate, avid varanid enthusiasts, they take offense to the spread of any misinformation that detracts from this goal.

Looking at some of the statements the "unnamed" has made on several sites, and his own track record, I can conclude he quite simply, does not know as much as he (and many others) thinks he does. Consequently, I do not view him as a reliable source of information regarding monitors. My stance is nothing personal, but just based on his own experience. The evidence has been cited throughout this thread and others, so I won't recant it. In short, it is not much different than a random stranger coming into the LPS that I used to work at, and claims he is an expert on monitors because he has kept many over the years. Yet he keeps returning to purchase another because his keep dying. Yeah, it is a truthful statement that he has kept a lot of monitors over a certain period of time, and using the term "experienced" is debatable, but based on his track record, would anyone consider this person to be a reliable source for learning how to properly care for monitors successfully? The only difference between this hypothetical example and "unnamed" is that UN has been doing it for quite a while, and has developed a name for himself.

In my opinion, the only people who are making this personal are the dedicated followers. It is not Wayne's or Crocdoc's fault that most of the misinformation in question is coming from a singular source, and that source just happens to be a well-known individual in the hobby. I'm a moderator on another forum, and if I know someone is spreading misinformation about anything, I will call them out on it. Again, nothing personal, but it behooves the person to be corrected and benefits anyone listening to be provided with the most accurate, factual information there is. On the forum I moderate, we don't tolerate false information either. So I stand behind Wayne's position on this matter.

crocdoc · 07-10-12, 02:51 PM

Lankyrob and Korbin, if you were to look at my original post on this topic, you'd see that it wasn't an all out bash but simply me trying to set Moe straight on whether deep substrate was something that's simply useful in captivity vs used by all monitors in the wild yet only observed by 'some'.

The post is at the top of this page:
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varan...thread-11.html

Here's the original quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

Hmmm.... yes, no and maybe. A lot of husbandry has been based on what works in captivity and then extrapolated to the wild, rather than just being left at 'works in captivity'. Despite the claims of 'certain' people, a lot of people (including, dare I say it, scientists) have always known that some monitors burrow in the wild. The reality is that some monitors burrow in the wild, others don't. Others roost in trees, or in rock crevices. In captivity some of these will still happily sleep in burrows provided it meets their needs.

That was in response to this post by Moe:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo9e64

...alot of husbandry was based on was observations of monitors in the wild.The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.Deep substrate is important not because it's just one approach but because it's a tool monitors use in the wild,even species people like to label as aquatic or arboreal.It's a tool for a monitor whether there from the desert or tropical forest.

It turned into a bashing because it simply didn't stop there. My attacks aren't against Moe - I think he's an alright guy, even if a bit misguided - but I don't even think he's aware that he's repeating someone else's nonsense, which is why I felt the need to point it out. I know that Moe has never seen monitors in the wild and I know which other forum he hangs around at and who the one person on that forum is that has actually seen monitors in the wild, so it's not hard to figure out where Moe got the idea that all monitors burrow in the wild, even the aquatic and arboreal species.

If not, then this is Moe's opportunity to set the record straight by listing online sources/publications/books/journals/or any-other-source from which he got that idea, as well as the idea that this burrowing by all species of monitor was observed by 'someone' after being ignored for so long because of an inbuilt fault in other humans.

I should also point out that, as much as I am bashing someone behind their back here, I have no qualms about confronting that same person on the one forum of which we are both members and have done so fairly recently.

varanus_mad · 07-10-12, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

Not if it gets a point across, Lankyrob.

Many people take his every word as gospel and when the Moes of the world start talking about what wild monitors do and don't do (based on his claims) here on this forum it's the start of an insidious creep of his nonsense into yet another forum so excuse me for wanting to nip it in the bud.

Because Moe's mate would never do that, right? Lol.

I agree... he wouldnt... never...

The most horrible thing about all of this is... though trying to correct his mis-information... he actually turns people into sort of lesser versions...

varanus_mad · 07-10-12, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarich

A very good thing to remember for those of us with that information. HOW it is presented is almost as important as what is presented. No one was ever taught how to use a shovel by being bashed in the face with it.

In that case matey out of interest do you think im to... Harsh with my advice?

crocdoc · 07-10-12, 04:09 PM

Well, if the alternative is to allow the insidious creep of his misinformation (and boasts) into other forums, then so be it.

varanus_mad · 07-10-12, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

Well, if the alternative is to allow the insidious creep of his misinformation (and boasts) into other forums, then so be it.

lesser of two evils.

infernalis · 07-10-12, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

Well, if the alternative is to allow the insidious creep of his misinformation (and boasts) into other forums, then so be it.

Not on here it won't

dehlol · 07-10-12, 07:33 PM

There is a reason many of us steer clear of certain forums that he infests (one in particular comes to mind). One can read half a page of his crap and realize a lot of his fundamentals on varanid keeping are based on his own arrogance.

At some juncture, I actually think he knows what he's doing is wrong, and just a big troll. On the other hand, I feel like he's actually convinced himself he's right like a pathological liar would. He's a really weird fellow that's for sure.