Monitor enclosure discussion thread - Page 12

DiscoPat · 07-08-12, 01:47 PM

Is a 75W bulb too high, will it dry out the enclosure? one of my 50W ones broke today and I can buy another 50 but I was thinking a 75 would make it a little closer to the 130 or so range for his basking spot and I have an extra one to use.

infernalis · 07-08-12, 03:50 PM

No harm in trying...

crocdoc · 07-08-12, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo9e64

I wish i had not implied unintentionally that burrowing was the only unobserved monitor behaviour.

You hadn't implied that burrowing was the only unobserved behaviour (intentionally or unintentionally). You'd implied that burrowing was an unobserved monitor behaviour. We all know that your mate has made claims about all sorts of other supposedly unobserved behaviours

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo9e64

If people disagree that deep substrate was not a good margin for error tool for new keepers i wish that people would argue that point instead of using it as an excuse to bash.I found deep substrate useful in my experience.I will use any sucessful method that helps my monitors dispite my feelings of the advice giver.

Again, my argument isn't whether or not deep substrate is a good tool in captivity. My argument is against the claim that its use (or the use of any other captive husbandry tool) is based on one individual's observation from wild monitors (and the claim that invariably goes with it that no one has observed this before).

Some see it as an excuse to bash, I see it as countering all of the science-bashing that goes on 'elsewhere'. If you were genuinely interested in keeping it about captive husbandry only and whether or not it works in captivity, then your original statement should have been that it works in captivity, rather than adding little stabs like this one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo9e64

The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.

Even though you hadn't mentioned any names, we all know who your sources are (rather, who your source is) and where those comments come from (and also know who these 'other' people that fail to observe these things are meant to be), so as long as you slip those little comments in I will continue to bash in response.

varanus_mad · 07-09-12, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiscoPat

Is a 75W bulb too high, will it dry out the enclosure? one of my 50W ones broke today and I can buy another 50 but I was thinking a 75 would make it a little closer to the 130 or so range for his basking spot and I have an extra one to use.

I have used halogens all the way up to 120w... Currently using an 80w in my albigs viv

mo9e64 · 07-09-12, 07:40 AM

An important thing is not to have your mind made up about things going in,it can cloud your perspective.If endorsing to new keepers the use of deep substrate somehow becomes a hidden agenda about scientists I guess Dave you would be in your right to defend against those comments.You could have just asked,instead of accusing me of attacking a group of your colleagues.My motive and comments were solely based on new keepers perspective,their idea of what monitors are.What i think is based on the experiences of others,how can it not influence me.If you were the originator of all sucessful husbandry than you might have the right to judge me,but you like me were influenced by others.Those others were not perfect,unless you choose to see it that way.

bushsnake · 07-09-12, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

I feel the exact same way, propagation of uncertain information & made up nonsense (not just from one source) has cost the lives of many animals.

People do not do their homework anymore, its pathetic. In the late 90's i bred this frog species that was very difficult to breed and very few people had success. I did my homework and nailed it...produced about 500 in 6 months, thats probably still the most anyone has produced. Great information IS OUT THERE.

mo9e64 · 07-09-12, 07:56 AM

I think Wayne would agree with me on this one,if the cage is well insulated you can get good results using lower wattage bulbs.I still would say to use more low wattage bulbs as opposed to one larger one,correct me if i am wrong it spreads heat over a larger area without the higher concentrated heat.My cage which is 10' x 5' x 6' is heated with 5-6 30 to 50w floodlights in an unheated garage(heated in winter monthes)

mo9e64 · 07-09-12, 08:03 AM

What it takes to raise monitors to old age is out there,that's the sad thing people hold on to ideas which are contradicted by what some keepers are doing.

infernalis · 07-09-12, 08:08 AM

Yes, I push insulation on everyone who asks cage advice. My last cage was not insulated, it was a nightmare. uneven temps, high wattage lights, no humidity (it all burned off and escaped) it was a beef jerky machine.

This cage stays rock steady all day, Under the basking platform is a big flat rock that weighs about 200 pounds, it holds it's stored heat forever, I don't worry a lot about power failures, it takes a long time for that cage to cool down.

I use a sprinkle can to dampen the soil about once every 3 weeks, the dirt just does not dry out very fast at all in this one.

bushsnake · 07-09-12, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo9e64

What it takes to raise monitors to old age is out there,that's the sad thing people hold on to ideas which are contradicted by what some keepers are doing.

Ive seen people flat out refuse great information just because they felt like they were being attacked with it...I SEE ALL THE TIME

jarich · 07-09-12, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bushsnake

Ive seen people flat out refuse great information just because they felt like they were being attacked with it...I SEE ALL THE TIME

A very good thing to remember for those of us with that information. HOW it is presented is almost as important as what is presented. No one was ever taught how to use a shovel by being bashed in the face with it.

infernalis · 07-09-12, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarich

A very good thing to remember for those of us with that information. HOW it is presented is almost as important as what is presented. No one was ever taught how to use a shovel by being bashed in the face with it.

Powerful words...............

crocdoc · 07-09-12, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo9e64

What i think is based on the experiences of others,how can it not influence me.If you were the originator of all sucessful husbandry than you might have the right to judge me,but you like me were influenced by others.Those others were not perfect,unless you choose to see it that way.

Moe, I don't care that it influences you. It's the parroting of it here that annoys me. No, your mate was not the originator of all successful husbandry. You just take everything he claims to be the truth, despite all evidence to the contrary, and repeat it because you haven't had enough experience of your own to have developed good BS filters.

Yes, my husbandry has been partially influenced by other people - keepers that I've spoken to here, in my own country, mostly - and partially has been developed by myself through research, observation and trial and error. I happily share that information through frequent talks at herpetological societies around the country.

The funny thing is, I used to have discussions with your mate many years ago, when I first started keeping monitors, and quickly realised how full of BS he is most of the time. I've gone against much of his dogma and have found much more success that way. There's been a recent argument about that, you may recall, but that's only one example of many things I do that go against his dogma. Yes, he does have good information mixed in with the BS, but you still haven't figured out which is which so you parrot the whole lot together. Here's my advice: Don't repeat the stuff about wild monitors until you've seen monitors in the wild yourself. Once you have your own observations about wild monitors we'll all be happy to read your opinions on them. Until then, stick to talking about what works or doesn't work in captivity without adding stories about who has or hasn't seen what in the wild, because you are only repeating the claims of someone else.

Once again, I repeat (because I can't think of any other way to express it): If you think deep substrate is a good husbandry tool in captivity (I would agree that it is), then say so. Don't parrot your mate's claims about all wild monitors living in burrows, or his claims that no one had ever known this until he observed it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo9e64

What it takes to raise monitors to old age is out there,that's the sad thing people hold on to ideas which are contradicted by what some keepers are doing.

Funny you should say that about people holding onto ideas. What do you reckon the lifespan of a female lace monitor is?

dehlol · 07-09-12, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

Funny you should say that about people holding onto ideas. What do you reckon the lifespan of a female lace monitor is?

If that certain "mate" of his is the same one I'm thinking- just long enough to have complications from breeding/egg binding I reckon.

Some of the information given by that guy is such crap, but how he defends it and believes so strongly in it is truly humorous.

crocdoc · 07-10-12, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dehlol

If that certain "mate" of his is the same one I'm thinking- just long enough to have complications from breeding/egg binding I reckon.

Indeed. Easy to do the maths, too, based entirely on things he's said:

He's bred "over a hundred" (everyone knows it's much less than that, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt).

They breed at one year of age.

They lay 5 clutches a year.

When they lay 5 clutches, the clutches are small: around 5 eggs.

He's had a few females: 3 or 4.

So, 5 clutches x 5 eggs = 25 babies.

25 babies x 4 females = 100

...and that's it. One breeding season for each female.

According to that, his females lived two years. One year of growing, one year of producing five clutches, then they were toast.

Awesome.