Oh my god

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by dinosaurdammit

In the video he says he doesn't breed them yet has a male alone with a harem of females who lay their eggs in the food or dirt. This is breeding. None of the offspring are viable but if given 1/4 the chance they would be. He instead feeds eggs to the tegu and on the video says monitors

That doesn't mean he is a breeder. Has he ever hatched any of these eggs? Can you prove he sold the offspring?

So what if his female iggy laid eggs without a male present? Would you still consider him a breeder? That's a really bold ( and exaggerated statement) for such little evidence.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

That doesn't mean he is a breeder. Has he ever hatched any of these eggs? Can you prove he sold the offspring?

So what if his female iggy laid eggs without a male present? Would you still consider him a breeder? That's a really bold ( and exaggerated statement) for such little evidence.

PHEW! Good thing you caught that Kevin! Its so important to this thread and the issue at hand, that you be correct in showing everyone the misuse of the exact definition of the term "breeder" here. I bet if the animals could talk they would thank you from the bottom of their hearts for your contribution to their wellbeing. Well done sir, well done.

(In case it passed you by, that was dripping with sarcasm)

[dinosaurdammit]

and the plot thickens

D&M`s Reptile Rescue - YouTube

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by jarich

PHEW! Good thing you caught that Kevin! Its so important to this thread and the issue at hand, that you be correct in showing everyone the misuse of the exact definition of the term "breeder" here. I bet if the animals could talk they would thank you from the bottom of their hearts for your contribution to their wellbeing. Well done sir, well done.

(In case it passed you by, that was dripping with sarcasm)

This whole thing is being based on emotion and exaggeration. There're many things that have been said by both sides that just need to stop.

Now since you are taking up the cause let us look at what she has insinuated with out one shred of evidence. She calls him a thief for accepting a "surrender fee" because he doesn't take them to a vet when the site says it will go toward veterinary care. Without getting into that all it would actually make him a liar at the most.

She claims that he is a "backyard breeder pet shop" without any proof that he breeds or sells the offspring. As a matter of fact there is no proof this guy even sells any of the animals. So far it looks Luke he just keeps them ( which is his constitutional right).

She also comes along and shares a "true" story about him keep a guys monitor. She questions if he has it hiding in his house 10(?) Years later.... seriously? Don't most savs ( which I believe this one was supposed to be) die in the first couple of years? Yet he has managed to keep it alive for ten even though his husbandry for everything else is pretty rough.

Now this one is my favorite. She insinuates that Dave goes into people's back yards and "rescues" their tortoises! She basically says this guy is wandering neighborhoods and stealing animals!

Every last one of them is an unbiased personal attack. I have not said anything since I first said how I feel but I think this is getting ridiculous. Sure the guy doesn't take proper care of his animals. Honestly I don't think he should be running a rescue if he can't provide proper care. Do I personally care if he is shut down or not? Nope. I may think it's sad but I just don't feel like it is the end of the world.

Personally I think you all should stop your hearts from bleeding so some blood makes it back to your brains. That way maybe you could look objectively at some of nonsense being spouted and this could be handled properly.

Oh, Josh? That response style isn't flattering to you or your intelligence. Leave the foolishness to the regular ***hats. I think you are better than that.

[dinosaurdammit]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

This whole thing is being based on emotion and exaggeration. There're many things that have been said by both sides that just need to stop.

Now since you are taking up the cause let us look at what she has insinuated with out one shred of evidence. She calls him a thief for accepting a "surrender fee" because he doesn't take them to a vet when the site says it will go toward veterinary care. Without getting into that all it would actually make him a liar at the most.

She claims that he is a "backyard breeder pet shop" without any proof that he breeds or sells the offspring. As a matter of fact there is no proof this guy even sells any of the animals. So far it looks Luke he just keeps them ( which is his constitutional right).

She also comes along and shares a "true" story about him keep a guys monitor. She questions if he has it hiding in his house 10(?) Years later.... seriously? Don't most savs ( which I believe this one was supposed to be) die in the first couple of years? Yet he has managed to keep it alive for ten even though his husbandry for everything else is pretty rough.

Now this one is my favorite. She insinuates that Dave goes into people's back yards and "rescues" their tortoises! She basically says this guy is wandering neighborhoods and stealing animals!

Every last one of them is an unbiased personal attack. I have not said anything since I first said how I feel but I think this is getting ridiculous. Sure the guy doesn't take proper care of his animals. Honestly I don't think he should be running a rescue if he can't provide proper care. Do I personally care if he is shut down or not? Nope. I may think it's sad but I just don't feel like it is the end of the world.

Personally I think you all should stop your hearts from bleeding so some blood makes it back to your brains. That way maybe you could look objectively at some of nonsense being spouted and this could be handled properly.

Oh, Josh? That response style isn't flattering to you or your intelligence. Leave the foolishness to the regular ***hats. I think you are better than that.

I "insinuated" because they lie and lie about darn near everything. He kept a guys monitor whats to make me doubt he doesnt take other animals and refuse to give them back? Its not a far jump at all. Hoarders often do take other peoples animals because they feel that they would be doing better for that animal than someone else.

The bull snake is native and apparently you have to have permits to own one. Does he own permits? Probably not.

Iguanas dont need uvb. Aquatic turtles need greens. I have to wonder korbin if you ever trulywatch videos we post that are records of the conditions or you come in here to stir the pot. Phoenix herp just called a few mins ago and they asked for the number for dan krull. D&M has lied and lied and lied and provided piss poor conditions for these animals and yet you never say that in any of your post without dragging us in the mud, you just nit pick at us rather than actually adding anything of value- yes, we are emotional but no decision is made rationally, its all emotion based and we then try to rationalize it.

That video I just posted and i will post it AGAIN D&M`s Reptile Rescue - YouTube proves he has no clue, and now we dont know how old this kid is but if he is under 15 he cant even be helping out with "volunteer" work in arizona. NONE OF THOSE ANIMALS ARE KEPT RIGHT. Heck the water turtles are over crowed to the point of drowning and have no apparent heat or good filters.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by dinosaurdammit

I "insinuated" because they lie and lie about darn near everything. He kept a guys monitor whats to make me doubt he doesnt take other animals and refuse to give them back? Its not a far jump at all. Hoarders often do take other peoples animals because they feel that they would be doing better for that animal than someone else.

The bull snake is native and apparently you have to have permits to own one. Does he own permits? Probably not.

Iguanas dont need uvb. Aquatic turtles need greens. I have to wonder korbin if you ever trulywatch videos we post that are records of the conditions or you come in here to stir the pot. Phoenix herp just called a few mins ago and they asked for the number for dan krull. D&M has lied and lied and lied and provided piss poor conditions for these animals and yet you never say that in any of your post without dragging us in the mud, you just nit pick at us rather than actually adding anything of value- yes, we are emotional but no decision is made rationally, its all emotion based and we then try to rationalize it.

That video I just posted and i will post it AGAIN D&M`s Reptile Rescue - YouTube proves he has no clue, and now we dont know how old this kid is but if he is under 15 he cant even be helping out with "volunteer" work in arizona. NONE OF THOSE ANIMALS ARE KEPT RIGHT. Heck the water turtles are over crowed to the point of drowning and have no apparent heat or good filters.

So since he lies you make stuff up to make him look bad? Good call!
Yes I have watched the video.

How is this bold statement even relevant? Could it be his grandson or another relative? Do you even know this kid or his identity? You really need to stop grasping at straws to make your case.



Well Erika since you obviously didn't read what I posted let me point it out so you don't miss it.

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

She also comes along and shares a "true" story about him keep a guys monitor. She questions if he has it hiding in his house 10(?) Years later.... seriously? Don't most savs ( which I believe this one was supposed to be) die in the first couple of years? Yet he has managed to keep it alive for ten even though his husbandry for everything else is pretty rough.



Every last one of them is an unbiased personal attack. I have not said anything since I first said how I feel but I think this is getting ridiculous. Sure the guy doesn't take proper care of his animals. Honestly I don't think he should be running a rescue if he can't provide proper care. Do I personally care if he is shut down or not? Nope. I may think it's sad but I just don't feel like it is the end of the world.
.

I haven't personally attacked you so for you to claim I am "dragging you through the mud and "stirring the pot" is again purely emotional and greatly exaggerated. You are actually slandering this man. Everything I pointed out is straight fabrications you made up and are using against him.

Could you also clarify where it was said or a video of these turtles drowning? Or is that made up also? Because this is the first I've heard of that.

I also wonder if he would've given you that boa you wanted (so desperately that you even told the aspca you would take in your email complaint) if you would've made such a stink. Maybe when they close him down they will give it to you as a reward.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

This whole thing is being based on emotion and exaggeration. There're many things that have been said by both sides that just need to stop.

Now since you are taking up the cause let us look at what she has insinuated with out one shred of evidence. She calls him a thief for accepting a "surrender fee" because he doesn't take them to a vet when the site says it will go toward veterinary care. Without getting into that all it would actually make him a liar at the most.

She claims that he is a "backyard breeder pet shop" without any proof that he breeds or sells the offspring. As a matter of fact there is no proof this guy even sells any of the animals. So far it looks Luke he just keeps them ( which is his constitutional right).

She also comes along and shares a "true" story about him keep a guys monitor. She questions if he has it hiding in his house 10(?) Years later.... seriously? Don't most savs ( which I believe this one was supposed to be) die in the first couple of years? Yet he has managed to keep it alive for ten even though his husbandry for everything else is pretty rough.

Now this one is my favorite. She insinuates that Dave goes into people's back yards and "rescues" their tortoises! She basically says this guy is wandering neighborhoods and stealing animals!

Every last one of them is an unbiased personal attack. I have not said anything since I first said how I feel but I think this is getting ridiculous. Sure the guy doesn't take proper care of his animals. Honestly I don't think he should be running a rescue if he can't provide proper care. Do I personally care if he is shut down or not? Nope. I may think it's sad but I just don't feel like it is the end of the world.

Personally I think you all should stop your hearts from bleeding so some blood makes it back to your brains. That way maybe you could look objectively at some of nonsense being spouted and this could be handled properly.

Oh, Josh? That response style isn't flattering to you or your intelligence. Leave the foolishness to the regular ***hats. I think you are better than that.

Youre right, I should leave the sarcastic comments out of it, my apologies. I tried the rational and it didnt seem to work, so I figured perhaps a different route might have the effect I was looking for. Its not an excuse though, and Ill not do so again.

You're vehement comments seem to amount to the minutiae between someone being a liar or a thief, the difference between an accidental breeder or one who actively breeds and sells, and a story that was told about a possible stolen monitor from an independent source. I'll ask again, what difference does any of that make to the fact that this rescue has been torturing animals slowly and still continues to see nothing wrong with what it is doing? You were right in saying that the comment about the age of the kid on the video isnt relevant, but how are your comments any more relevant? Does it make one bit of difference to those animals if the owner is a liar rather than a thief? Will the animals conditions be improved if you show everyone that none of the eggs that were laid are viable? No, it doesnt and no, it wont. So again I will ask you, why do you so strongly feel the need to detract from the point of the thread, which is to address the issue of the treatment of these animals?

Your suggestion that my position is the one based on merely a 'bleeding heart" and that I am the one who is letting his emotions get in the way of rational thought is strange when looking at your argument. I'm of the opinion that these animals would have had it better if they were just euthanized by their original owners. I dont care about this guy one way or the other, except for the fact that he accepts animals as a rescue and has no business doing so. Thats my head talking not my heart. However, you do seem to have let your emotional need to prove Erica wrong get in the way of your intelligent response to a dire situation for these animals. By your own admission you state that this guy's care is substandard. You routinely attack people on this site for what you consider substandard care. Why, all of a sudden, are you defending someone who by his own admission is both providing substandard care, and obstinate in his refusal to see the truth of the matter or change it? If you knew nothing about reptile care then perhaps I wouldnt question the intellectual nature of your response, but you are obviously looking past your knowledge in your emotional need to prove Erica wrong and yourself right. So who is the one here whose emotions are clouding their intellect, Kevin?

The problem I do have with your post is the suggestion that these are his personal animals to torture as he sees fit. He lists himself as a rescue. He takes money from people who surrender their animals there as a rescue. He seeks out and accepts sponsorship from other businesses as a rescue. He is not just some guy who bought his animals and doesnt have any further responsibility beyond himself. If that was the case, if he took down the rescue part of his operation, then by all means its unfortunate, but none of my, or anyone else's, business really. But that isnt the case, and since he still doesnt think he is doing anything wrong, or in any way needs to change anything he is doing (as evidenced in that latest video) then this still needs our attention.

[cgillis]

"I also wonder if he would've given you that boa you wanted (so desperately that you even told the aspca you would take in your email complaint) if you would've made such a stink. Maybe when they close him down they will give it to you as a reward."

How do you know what is in her emails to the aspca?

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by jarich

..........

First off I really didn't mean to lump you with the bleeding hearts. I have known you too long to believe that. You are right that if that tegu is six inches, if the torts have rotting carapaces, if the boas are drowning in rusty drums and are blind from YEARS of retained caps, if the iguanas have ice cold water as they bake in the sun and are covered in ulcers then yeah they should be put down because that is humane.


You confuse me with Aaron a lot. I have never said I am "blunt" for the good of the animals. That's not me nor do I feel a need to justify myself for how I act.

As for my need to prove Erika wrong well I really don't have one. How are my post relevant? Simple. She is now making wild accusations and assumptions to make her case sound better! Where I'm from that's lying. So if she wants to stretch those points I have shown well what about other points?

Honestly I said my piece then I pointed out the breeder comment. If you guys feel this is acceptable then hey I made my case and I didn't stretch the truth.

.

Originally Posted by cgillis

"I also wonder if he would've given you that boa you wanted so desperately that you even told the aspca you would take in your email complaint) if you would've made such a stink. Maybe when they close him down they will give it to you as a reward."

How do you know what is in her emails to the aspca?

Sorry it was to the Phoenix herp society not aspca.

Originally Posted by dinosaurdammit

So here is the email I sent to the phoenix herp rescue:



Boas had facial deformations, a few were blind from MANY YEARS of stuck eye caps, they were blind. When asking him where the red tail went he didnt know his quote and I swear "Huh I have no clue where my red tail went he must have been the one that died" to my responce "why'd he die?" he repiled " ahhh sometimes it just happens". Also one of the females was so badly skinny I doubt she can be saved. If she has a chance, the thinnest one I would really Like her. The one with the stuck eyecaps needs vet cae asap. I was able to remove the shed from the nose so she could breathe. Ones face is messed up so bad I believe it affects her hoe she eats. She needs vet care ASAP- their waterdish was a cold 55 gallon rusty drum that they had to struggle to get out of, the thin one almost drowned.

[Jendee]

I kinda agree that the insults and digging into his personal dealings or assumings of his personal dealings is not necessary and not helping anything. I think focusing on the animals and finding a way to either help him help them or help them should be the only focus. I think the more this guy is called names and such he is just going to shut out help, close his doors then what, then it becomes more invasive with authorities (probably already has) and now you brought bad media to the herp world. As they already say that we keep are animals in horrible conditions this will just confirm there thoughts.
Not by any means saying he should be left alone but there is a more positive way to go about this...

[TucsonRES]

The "personal attacks", semantics, snide or sarcastic comments do not belong on this thread. This isn't about anyone proving anyone right, wrong or superior. This thread is about the deplorable conditions these animals are in and trying to do something about it.

The he said/she said is irrelevant to the issues here.

The pictures that Erica took, the video that Charlotte took on Saturday (which D&M scheduled), the interviews with Dan Krull on Herp Nation and Jason from The Daily Reptile News and even the video response posted on D & M's behalf (which showed David on the video) yesterday are all the proof that should be needed to make up your mind.

Personally, I have kept RES and aquatic turtles for 13 years and take in surrenders but I am just starting to get into other reps. I was excited a week ago to find these forums to gain knowledge and be able to ask questions of people with more experience than I have, but after observing some of the behavior and attitude here and on other threads, I'd rather be smothered in honey, staked to an ant hill AND have a bottomless metal cage containing rats sitting on my torso with the top being heated by a propane torch than ask something and get flamed, abused or demeaned by somebody for asking for help or using a poor word choice.
That's not to say that everybody that has posted on here is like that and I have met some really nice people here that I will pm instead of posting.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by TucsonRES

The "personal attacks", semantics, snide or sarcastic comments do not belong on this thread. This isn't about anyone proving anyone right, wrong or superior. This thread is about the deplorable conditions these animals are in and trying to do something about it.

The he said/she said is irrelevant to the issues here.

The pictures that Erica took, the video that Charlotte took on Saturday (which D&M scheduled), the interviews with Dan Krull on Herp Nation and Jason from The Daily Reptile News and even the video response posted on D & M's behalf (which showed David on the video) yesterday are all the proof that should be needed to make up your mind.

Personally, I have kept RES and aquatic turtles for 13 years and take in surrenders but I am just starting to get into other reps. I was excited a week ago to find these forums to gain knowledge and be able to ask questions of people with more experience than I have, but after observing some of the behavior and attitude here and on other threads, I'd rather be smothered in honey, staked to an ant hill AND have a bottomless metal cage containing rats sitting on my torso with the top being heated by a propane torch than ask something and get flamed, abused or demeaned by somebody for asking for help or using a poor word choice.
That's not to say that everybody that has posted on here is like that and I have met some really nice people here that I will pm instead of posting.

I look forward to your pm's.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

You confuse me with Aaron a lot.

Honestly I said my piece then I pointed out the breeder comment. If you guys feel this is acceptable then hey I made my case and I didn't stretch the truth.

Na, to me youre just the same person with two accounts. blah blah blah boas... blah blah blah ball pythons...same **** (I honestly couldnt write that without laughing, so hopefully it at least got a smile out of you)

In reference to your second comment above, its not that I do or do not find it acceptable, I simply find it inconsequential. The thread isnt about Erica, its about D & M Rescue. Like TucsonRES said, the evidence is there all on its own.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by jarich

Na, to me youre just the same person with two accounts. blah blah blah boas... blah blah blah ball pythons...same **** (I honestly couldnt write that without laughing, so hopefully it at least got a smile out of you)

In reference to your second comment above, its not that I do or do not find it acceptable, I simply find it inconsequential. The thread isnt about Erica, its about D & M Rescue. Like TucsonRES said, the evidence is there all on its own.

I must say giggled!

[Jendee]

I just watched the most recent youtube video (some of the things the narrator or guy video taping said made my jaw hit the floor) it sounds like to me they know absolutely nothing about reptiles!! nothing!! with a side of being lazy/possibly overwhelmed with husbandry/responsibilities