Monitor enclosure discussion thread - Page 11

crocdoc · 06-29-12, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo9e64

...alot of husbandry was based on was observations of monitors in the wild.The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.Deep substrate is important not because it's just one approach but because it's a tool monitors use in the wild,even species people like to label as aquatic or arboreal.It's a tool for a monitor whether there from the desert or tropical forest.

Hmmm.... yes, no and maybe. A lot of husbandry has been based on what works in captivity and then extrapolated to the wild, rather than just being left at 'works in captivity'. Despite the claims of 'certain' people, a lot of people (including, dare I say it, scientists) have always known that some monitors burrow in the wild. The reality is that some monitors burrow in the wild, others don't. Others roost in trees, or in rock crevices. In captivity some of these will still happily sleep in burrows provided it meets their needs.

What's most important is that many species, particularly desert and/or savannah dwelling species, need to maintain moisture levels by retreating to a humid hide spot and a burrow suits those needs well.

DiscoPat · 06-29-12, 09:43 PM

Has anyone had any luck building a large enclosure for outside? I am talking like a 15x20x7 environment for their monitors?

Or just an 8x8x4 enclosure that is able to maintain good conditions outside rather than in a garage or a bedroom?

infernalis · 06-29-12, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

What's most important is that many species, particularly desert and/or savannah dwelling species, need to maintain moisture levels by retreating to a humid hide spot and a burrow suits those needs well.

Personal observation, both of my savs are quite happy underground.

It's fun to sit and watch the dirt heave and move around while they are down sub surface digging.

varanus_mad · 07-06-12, 05:32 PM

I havent kept a species yet that didnt burrow in a big way or a small way...

franks · 07-06-12, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

Personal observation, both of my savs are quite happy underground.

It's fun to sit and watch the dirt heave and move around while they are down sub surface digging.

My favorite is watching my little guy emerge from his underground network exactly 3 hours after the lights go on caked in wet dirt, yawning, and heading towards his water bowl to rinse off and go to the bathroom.

crocdoc · 07-06-12, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

I havent kept a species yet that didnt burrow in a big way or a small way...

That answer would probably be more informative if you'd mentioned which species those were. I have kept a species that doesn't burrow unless nesting. Lace monitors, Varanus varius, don't burrow unless they run out of choices to escape the heat/cold. If they have proper hollow logs they'll opt for those.

mo9e64 · 07-07-12, 06:17 AM

To me not using a deep substrate,is taking away a useful tool for monitors.How much they use it i agree may depend on species,but why not have it available,along with hollow logs.The way i see it,a trend is for people to rationalize,a hollow log now becomes a cardboard box or a sculpture cave.A deep substrate gets people thinking outside the box from traditional reptile keeping.I know that people can raise monitors without deep substrate,but it takes understanding through actual experience and observation,and it's not like you can't remove things they don't use,or add things for that matter.

varanus_mad · 07-07-12, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

That answer would probably be more informative if you'd mentioned which species those were. I have kept a species that doesn't burrow unless nesting. Lace monitors, Varanus varius, don't burrow unless they run out of choices to escape the heat/cold. If they have proper hollow logs they'll opt for those.

savs niles albigs timors ackies argus's

out of the lot the timors dug the least thry spent most of thete time in hollow logs

only made a 3/4 burtows the best ones was for eggs

the male only dug to see what was down there... curiosity i think

the a io i kept dug till she got to just under 3'

The a. Albig im keeping at the min has dug a burrow to sleep in

the argus dont thonk i need to tell you what they did lol same with the ackies

boscs dug a decent network of burrows to

do juvi lacies burrow?

Truthfully i cant imagine lacies burrowing unless for the reasons you mentioned

crocdoc · 07-07-12, 06:37 PM

Moe, I wasn't arguing against the use of deep substrate, I was arguing against you repeating your mate's assertion that the use of deep substrate in captivity is based on his 'observations' of burrow use by wild monitors and that no one previously had observed this in the wild.

Here's the quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo9e64

...alot of husbandry was based on was observations of monitors in the wild.The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.

The thing is, everyone has known for a very long time that many monitor species burrow. It wasn't 'discovered' by a visiting monitor keeper from Arizona. Heck, I've even observed it myself:

Wild Varanus panoptes burrow in central Queensland:

This is my boot (out of focus) as I stand on a slab of sandstone that a male heath monitor, Varanus rosenbergi had just ducked under, near Sydney, NSW. The heath monitor's tail is still visible as it waits to see what I do.

Close-up of the tail:

When the monitor ducked under I hopped down to have a look - its burrow went right up under this rock:

Thanks for the species list, varanus_mad and the description of their use/non-use of burrows. That information agrees with both of our assertions: The species you keep that are known burrowers in the wild (savs, Niles, albigs, ackies, argus) burrow and the one that isn't known to be much of a burrower in the wild (Timor) doesn't burrow much.

Baby lace monitors will squeeze under or into things (hollow logs, pieces of bark laid on the surface substrate etc) rather than burrow. However, if I go away for a few days and the humidity levels in the enclosure get neglected, they'll burrow down into the substrate (currently wood shavings) to avoid dehydration because it is always more humid at the bottom. This fits with what I was saying earlier - deep substrate is still a useful tool in captivity, even for non-burrowing species, but there's no need to claim it was based on observations in the wild rather than simply 'because it works in captivity'.

varanus_mad · 07-08-12, 02:54 AM

Personally i aint right fussed where it came from...

All i know is its something i feel monitors regardlessof sp should have access to it...

crocdoc · 07-08-12, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Personally i aint right fussed where it came from...

All i know is its something i feel monitors regardlessof sp should have access to it...

That's fair enough. Personally, I am fussed about where it came from because I'm tired of 'certain people' making grandiose claims about what they've seen in the wild, when 99% of the time it's BS based on what they've seen in captivity. Call a spade a spade, I say. If a technique was developed because it works in captivity, then describe it as such rather than make s___ up about what monitors do in the wild. I take that stance because, in addition to keeping monitors at home, I spend time watching monitors in the wild (and know other zoologists who do so professionally), so I'd rather not see BS passed on as truth.

varanus_mad · 07-08-12, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

That's fair enough. Personally, I am fussed about where it came from because I'm tired of 'certain people' making grandiose claims about what they've seen in the wild, when 99% of the time it's BS based on what they've seen in captivity. Call a spade a spade, I say. If a technique was developed because it works in captivity, then describe it as such rather than make s___ up about what monitors do in the wild. I take that stance because, in addition to keeping monitors at home, I spend time watching monitors in the wild (and know other zoologists who do so professionally), so I'd rather not see BS passed on as truth.

Suppose it does belittle the efforts of those who gone an done it...

And can provide proof to that effect...

infernalis · 07-08-12, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

I'd rather not see BS passed on as truth.

I feel the exact same way, propagation of uncertain information & made up nonsense (not just from one source) has cost the lives of many animals.

varanus_mad · 07-08-12, 08:20 AM

The fact of the matter is... This part of monitor husbandry didnt soley come from captivr and wild observations but a combo of the two

From multiple sources to boot...

No one person can lay claim to it...

Hence my apathy over who said what...

Im also a big big fan pf using multiple sources...

In the same way no one person has developed the husbandry we have today...

Anywho... Arent these debates fun

on another note im going to go meet some komodod at the end of the month...

mo9e64 · 07-08-12, 08:49 AM

I wish i had not implied unintentionally that burrowing was the only unobserved monitor behaviour.If people disagree that deep substrate was not a good margin for error tool for new keepers i wish that people would argue that point instead of using it as an excuse to bash.I found deep substrate useful in my experience.I will use any sucessful method that helps my monitors dispite my feelings of the advice giver.