What happens if you cross a carpet to a woma? (dialup)

[Gregg M]

What is so unreasonable about not wanting to pollute captive stock with hybrid blood??? What is so unreasonable about not wanting to make hybrid snakes suffer a bad quality of life brought on by greedy breeders......

Those problems I listed are VERY REAL.....

Also to answer your little bee statement.....LOL..... Yeah um years ago honey producers brough Africanized honey bees into South America to breed with our domestic honey bee so they can produce more honey...... Now look at the problems that caused..... The hybrids got the nasty disposition of the African honey bee and are Killing people here in the states and are taking over our much less aggressive domestic honey bee..... In some parts of the states, our domestic honey bee populations are at very low numbers do to this "wonderful" hybrid...... Yeah that worked out well......LOL

On to the keeping of reptiles as being unnatural.......
Although the snakes are no longer in their natural habitat and natural selection has been brought to a low, captive propogation is not a bad thing......

We as reptile keepers/breeders should be responsible for keeping the blood lines as pure and natural as we can...... This means not crossing blood from totally different species into pure bloodlines...... It is also our responsiblity to breed healthy animals and to BE CERTAIN that the offsping will be healthy and thrive..... This means not taking the chance in crossing two separate species to eachother, increasing the likelyhood of producing deformed animals or animals thay might be suffering a "biological tug- of- war going on inside their mental and physical being.....

Again, screw spell check...... It isnt that important and tells you nothing about me or my knowledge on reptile or this particular subject...... That is just you way of adding to this without knowing what you are talking about.....

You are the one who is inexperianced and still have much to learn on this subject and obviously others involving reptiles.....

Now, instead of making fun of my name and spelling, post something that has some weight to it.....

You are right about one thing..... Wolf hybrids having psycological problems might have been too strong of a choice of words...... They have behavior problems...... Many wolf hybrids also have skin problems, like skin cancers......

Here is alittle more info for ya.....

The concept of hybrid vigor assumes that a crossbred animal (and this term is most often used in discussing dogs) will be healthier than a purebred. In reality, this is often false.

In order to be a hybrid, an animal must be the product of two different species: donkey and a horse, offspring is a mule; lion (m) and a tiger (f), offspring is a liger; tiger (m) and lion (f), offspring is a tigon; wolf and domestic dog, offspring is called a wolf hybrid. Remember high school Biology, animal classification: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species? Each animal in the crosses mentioned share the same Family (Equus, Felis, Canis) but are different species. The offspring are hybrids. Domestic dogs are the same species familiaris. When you cross breed domestic dogs (Canis familiaris ), you are within the same species; therefore, not creating a hybrid.

Hybrids are not problem free. In Ligers, no fertile male has ever been found and necropsies have proven sterility in them. Other issues in ligers and tigons: ligers may be prone to gigantism and tigons may be prone to dwarfism. Both hybridizations have shown an increase in cancer rates and decrease in lifespan. (Tiger Territory, M. Annabell, 2001). In wolf/dog hybrids, there are often behavioral issues. The domestic dog differs greatly in behavior from a wolf. Dogs were bred to be cooperative with humans while wolves fear humans and try to avoid us. Even domestic Wolves are far different from dog in terms of behavior. Dogs often accept leadership happily while adult wolves will fight for leadership within the pack. The wolf/dog hybrid can be a time bomb temperamentally when they hit full maturity. Wolves also differ from dogs in other ways including: skull structure, nutritional needs, estrus cycles, etc. (Canine Hybrid Issues Surrounding the Wolf Dog , M. Sloan, J. Moore Porter, 2001)

[Dirty]

To me, a sterile hybrid or an animal born with deadly complications is where nature draws the line. It simply doesn't want this animal to procreate. I think that when nature doesn't want an animal to produce, it won't let it. Some hybrids that produce seem to be ok with nature. Gregg, I agree with you that hybrid animals should not be sold as pure bloodlines. But, in the case of N.E.R.D. and other hybrid producers who are responsible enough to sell the snakes as what they are, I'd have to say that I certainly don't agree with NEVER producing ANY hybrids

[ravensgait]

LMAO as usual your facts leave much to be desired the dang Bees escaped from a laboratory LOLOL just like all your facts it might be something you heard at sometime but your memory taints the supposed facts when you post them.

Again don't talk about wolves you know not one thing about them other than they have teeth and hair. Da I've been involved with Wolf hybrids and you sure don't have a clue what your talking about. The problem with the hybrids is the dog side not the wolf. IE In North America there has been no recorded attack on a human by a wolf other than a rabid wolf. The aggression seem in a few hybrids comes from the dog, which creates a problem in that the hybrids are bigger ,stronger, and more intelligent than the dogs who produced them. Heck a wild wolf would sit and watch a human go into its den and take its cubs though it would attack and kill any other animal that went near it's cubs. The reason for old world wolves attacking human is easy, all the battles with dead humans left on the field . Wolves ate the dead and wounded left on the battle field, and well it's not a big leap from there to attack and kill a live easily subdued human is it. I've been around both hybrid wolves and pure wolves so again try not to speak here on subjects you have little or no knowledge of opps well then I guess you wouldn't have posted anything in this thread then.

Umm Gregg Canis and Python think about it daaaaaa

As for your tiger lion comments as I mentioned before some feel the problem may be that the parents of these offspring had health and genetic problems and gee they are mules big surprise there but just how does the inability to reproduce affect their health. Well here's a hybrid that doesn't seem to work very well and there are many others but there are many that succeed. Gee think of all the species we know who were just simple hybrids at one time maybe even humans AHHHHHHHH

No one ever said hybrids are problem free gee wish you could read as well as you rave. Well I could go on rebutting your make believe but why don't we make this simple and you just come out and say I HATE HYBRIDs don't know all that much about hybrid anythings but I HATE THEM. Because that is the reason you keep blathering here you just hate the idea and once you stated your dislike had to try and defend your position though you have done so badly you have given it your all. I'll give you an M for effort.


Randy

[RB420]

Randy i keep snakes because i find them to be interesting creatures. ALL snakes, not just the good looking ones. I hve always felt this way, as far back as the age of seven if a remember correctly. i do not own a colour morph. i have never once sold a snake. i spend my hard earned money on snakes and never ask for anything back from them.

i don't use spell check either? what does that say about me? does it make me an idiot or something? please expand on that comment, and tell me what insight that gives you on who i am as a person. People make typos. get over it.

You do make some valid points about the benefits of hybrids in many cases. But none when refering to snakes. Where as Gregg as made many points (whether you agree with them or not) regarding the negative aspects of hybrid in reference to snakes.

Oh and on an off-topic note, but since they were brought up. My Girlfriend hsa purebred artic wolf. She is an amazingly loyal pet. and has never had any problems with being kept in captivity....at least none that i am aware of. and she is currently 13 years old.

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by Dirty
Gregg, I agree with you that hybrid animals should not be sold as pure bloodlines. But, in the case of N.E.R.D. and other hybrid producers who are responsible enough to sell the snakes as what they are, I'd have to say that I certainly don't agree with NEVER producing ANY hybrids

The only problem with that is, that once out of the hands of the original breeder, you do not know who they are going to or what they will be breeding them to...... Lets say all 7 of these hybrids lived and got sold to 7 different breeders..... Lets say all 7 people breed them to either their woma or carpet and got a tone of neonates from them..... Even if 4 out of the 7 represented them as they really are, there are 3 litters of hatchlings that have tainted blood lines that no one knows about..... Do you see how out of control this can get and how quickly it can happen..... Now you have a bunch of snakes out there with questionable blood lines that may have genetic problems down the line.....

The only reason these or any snake hybrid are created, is to make a bunch of quick money......

As for you Ravensgait, I have something lined up for you that will be posted soon enough.... Stay tuned.... LOL

The honey bees where brought here as a hybrid experiment to be better honey producers...... It worked, but look at the problems it has caused..... It does not matter who brought them here.... The fact is that the hybrid did much more harm than good.... Plus the fact they did not escape from a lab....LOL.... They escaped from an apairy......

Apairy: Bee keeping facility...

[ravensgait]

Montie that was a little dig at Gregg , he gets excited and upset and mis spells and runs his words together. If your spelling is awful as some who post on these forums, then yeah I think at the very least it shows laziness not to use a Spell check . Gregg just doesn't have time for one. As for his facts on Hybrid snakes ??? hasn't shown a single one yet his references were to bugs and other plant and animal hybrids. There have been very few studies done on hybrid snakes. Gee maybe NERD will publish something at least they have a lot more experience with them. We own snakes because we want to and if you or someone else wants to own such and such type of snake ! Well you wont find me here saying it should die or be destroyed ETC just because I don't like it. More than one person has said things like that here.

Hey I could care less how you feel about hybrids it's your opinion and your entitled to it, but when someone post that they should be destroyed ETC and that they will have this or that wrong with them , an opinion based on nothing other than the fact they just don't like it. And that others should do as they want them to! Well that I have a problem with as should everyone ,I have no right to tell you what you can have or like neither does anyone else. Gregg wants to make decisions for all based on his prejudice plain and simple.


Just like his current stance on Bees wrong but he'll ride it down because he said it. As for the honey bees in N.A .they have gone into decline and no one is really sure why. had nothing to do with the hybrids that got loose down south as they started to decline before the killer bees got any where near our borders and the Killer bees are still only in the most southern states. So his little story doesn't explain what happened to the Honey bees that live farther north but then again his story is just that a story. Greg do the killer bees eat the other bees? is that why they are in decline? The only facts he gave are that they did purposely make these hybrids. But did not intend for them to get loose.

OH boy Gregg I can hardly wait let me guess it's taking a long time for you to write up this study ??? or still trying to find something to back you up? heck I could do that for ya there are a bunch of studies out there both Pro and Con, ya just have to look for them Gregg I told ya how. click that little icon that says Search and type in what you want to search for. It's real easy and boy there are just pages and pages of info out there.

[Gregg M]

There are not studies that are pro hybrid snakes..... I do however have research info that will contradict your views..... I am in contact with real scientists (yes, they are doctors in their field) that work exclucivly with reptiles including their taxology and genetics..... As soon as I have all the info I need gathered up, I will come back and drop a bomb on ya.....LOL..... I will have email addresses and other contact info for you...... The only info you have is GREEDY BREEDER info..... Ofcorse they are going to tell you that it is fine..... They need to sell their product...... I am done until I gather the REST of the info..... Till then have fun bashing my spelling.....LOL

[Jeff_Favelle]

Not getting into it, but I don't want to see misinformation bandied about:

Woma's and Carpets are no more unrelated than say Wolves and Boxers.

Womas and Carpets are only related to the sub-family level (Pythoninae) and dogs and wolves are related to the GENUS level (Canus). That's a HUGE difference in terms of relation. HUGE.

Carry on.....

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Womas and Carpets are only related to the sub-family level (Pythoninae) and dogs and wolves are related to the GENUS level (Canus). That's a HUGE difference in terms of relation. HUGE.

And I am the one who does not know what he is talking about....LOL..... Good eye Jeff.....

[ravensgait]

OOOPs my bad Jeff was just skimming this article and missed a part ,here take a look www.smuggled.com/hybsna1.htm Interesting stuff about snakes down under ....Lots of info on this and other snake related stuff out there. Been saving some to my computer just in case Greg does finally post some info. OK LOL mostly because it's informative and interesting.

One thing I have seen mentioned in a number of papers and articles is that If the animals can breed naturally that they may not be of a different species. Don't know one way or the other on that but then they do keep renaming snakes all the time and shifting them from this species to that. Womas and Carpets do have some distinct differences. Don't think the Species Sub species arguments will be settled till DNA and like studies are done on them.

Gregg you didn't miss it you didn't have a clue.
Randy

[ravensgait]

Here's another link with information and links to more than you probably want to know about the snakes of Australia and surrounding Islands. www.smuggled.com/pytrev1.htm

Randy

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yeah, lots of DNA stuff needs to be done, I agree. Reptiles will be low on the totem pole though, ha ha. Unless they carry a cure for cancer in their blood or sonething crazy like that, know what I mean?

There are other barriers to speciation than F-D up babies and genetics. Pre-zygotic factors are factors that PREVENT the mating of certain species. Yes we can graft a pig's ear on to a mouse, or plant a rat sperm into a dog ovum, but that doesn't make them similar species. There are natural factors that prevent animals from "getting together" in the first place. Hence "pre-zygotic" (before the zygote). Geological barriers, mis-matched chromosomes, size, time of year that the animal breed, diet (cannibalistic snakes eating potential mates), radically different niche within the same geographic area (aquatic vs arboreal) etc etc etc bla bla bla. Those are all roadblocks to prevent dissimilar species from intergrading. I have NO doubt that a common Bci could breed with a Dumeril's. They look the same, Madagascar was obviously once part of South America when the continents were joined, and they are of roughly the same size. I would say that they are possibly more closely related to each other than Carpets are to Womas.

Final note to confuse things even more. The old biological definition of a species was groups of similar inviduals that could reproduce and produce fertile offspring. That was SCIENCE as of 15 years ago. So science isn't always the be-all end-all, but then again, it doesn't claim to be either.

Just some ramblings... carry on.

[ravensgait]

Jeff we may get lucky, I mentioned this before, last week there was a news story about finding something beneficial to the treatment or cure of Alzheimer's. I just caught part of it but they seemed pretty excited about whatever it was this lizard had and were going to do further research in other reptiles ETC ETC. gee the little crawlies may get their status upgraded to useful lol

Reading those papers on reptile studies and research you see that there really isn't a right answer to a lot of questions it may be one thing this year and the opposite the next. Like most subjects if you look hard enough you can find something to support your view. Kept coming across Human/reptile hybrid papers,thought they were a joke but kept seeing them so finally looked at a couple . It's really scary at times to see what some people believe. Bet ya didn't know that Bush was a human/reptile hybrid did ya ! would be funny but seems a lot of people believe that BS. Wonder if he was born or hatched?


Jeff as far as this thread goes I see the pros and cons of hybrids ,just really dislike when people get on these forums and preach that they are right and everyone must conform to their views, and the 'death to the hybrid babies' thing rather pissed me off. Here they preach how hybrids suffer etc then say stuff like that! makes me think of the H word .

Hey the colt is doing fine , driving his mom nuts already, he has a twisted sense of humor, he hides from her and waits till she's almost panicked with worry before popping out where she can see him. Gonna be a handful.
Randy

[Jeff_Favelle]

I didn't even know that horses could have personalities! That's hilarious!

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by ravensgait
Here they preach how hybrids suffer etc then say stuff like that! makes me think of the H word .

Waaaa waaaaa waaaa That pissed you off???? I would rather see a quick humane death, than for one hybrid to have to live a crappy life because of greed...... A king cobra would kill it fast and get something out of it...... See, you would be doing a good thing for both animals......

And I did not miss that comment about Carpets not being more unrelated from a woma than a wolf is from a boxer...... I quoted that little statement and corrected it a while ago...... LOL.....

Do you read the posts or just look for spelling errors????