Piebald Amazons ...anybody got any by chance?

[MouseKilla]

Whether this dude is breeding those snakes (which are some unbelievable looking creatures!) for money or for fun or because his ex-wife was a blue eyed blonde and his breeding these snakes represents some twisted obsession with all things blue eyed and blonde; he does it for his own reasons, for himself. Is it a good thing that he stepped in and brought these animals into the pet trade before the went extinct in the wild? Sure it is. But again this species will now only benefit the pet trade as it can never be returned to the wild. It's great we still have an example of an animal that is extinct in the wild to look at but it does nature no good. The human motivation to save species is strictly a selfish one also but that's another debate, for now it's good enough to simply acknowledge that we breed animals in captivity for our own purposes, whether that pupose is profit or not.

[JuliusSqueezer]

LOL Yah I do it for the money...whatever! You want to compare my Vet, Supplies and Rodent bill to what I make off selling babies now and then? I don't breed most of what I have nor do I breed those that I do breed very often. The reason I and many others do breed certain species is to take pressure off the wild populations / to not support smugglers and the farmed/import trade..and to help meet a market for good healthy CB animals. Is it really so bad to have a moral?

[JuliusSqueezer]

I wouldn't call myself a "breeder" anyway....more a herper... Most of my effort goes into rehabbing rescues and finding homes for adoptions. I enjoy field herping and not all of my rescues are unwanted pets. I scrape them up off the road now and then and patch them up. BWSmith has a gray ratsnake I scraped off a road in South Alabama, fixed a prolapse ...wasn't really anything I could do for the broken ribs...but with a little TLC, a stitched cloaca for a few days and some neosporin...He's looking really good. Brian adopted him for his educational programs...I didn't feel that he should be released....If you can find greed or bad ethics in that...I'm sorry to have offended you.

[MouseKilla]

Beardonicus (sp?),

Sorry if I'm being brutally honest, and don't take what I've said to mean that I don't treat my animals with as much care as anyone else (I'll even admit to talking to them occaisionally, lol!). At the same time I don't pretend that a species from south America benefits in any way sitting in an enclosure in southern Ontario. I have never engaged in a single act of cruelty to any of the animals I keep (ok, I accidently stepped on the cat once in the dark but other than that...). My animals are kept in the best conditions my credit card can provide them but I bought them for my own enjoyment and that is what I'm talking about.

Julius,

I never said you bred snakes for profit, what I said was is that if you do breed snakes you do it for your own sake EVEN IF THAT DOESN'T MEAN PROFIT. Could be a lot of other things instead but no matter what your reasons are they are your reasons, it's not a selfless act for the good of any animals. You can pretend that your reasons for breeding are morally superior to someone else's but they are still YOUR reasons.

[JuliusSqueezer]

hmm and I was starting to like you killa...Sorry that you don't see captive breeding as a better alternative than raping the wild....Sure some were raped at one point to get the breeding stock here...but if they weren't being bred in captivity, then the wild populations would never get a break from commercial collecting. Why is it important for us to keep them and not just enjoy them on Discovery channel you might ask? Most of what is known about reptiles and most other animals for that matter comes from information gathered by hobbiests...not herpetologists/Zoologists like you might think.

[marisa]

"But again this species will now only benefit the pet trade as it can never be returned to the wild"

And that's because humans built a subdivision over its natural locality. I think it is DEFINITLY for the snakes benefit to be bred in captivity. This species can possibly stand as an example to other areas thinking about plowing down wildlife areas. More proof of humans wiping out a certain species. Yes it happens all over, yes its just a tiny example but if this guy didn't love the snakes for what they are, he wouldn't be keeping the lines pure. I don't see how him doing something for himself, while at the same time ensuring a localities premanence here is "doing something for his own purposes"

That's all. But I do understand what you are saying. I just don't agree that everyone in the world is doing things with animals for selfish reasons.

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

So you're trying to tell me that you breed snakes for the sole, selfless purpose of taking the pressure off wild populations?? Sorry, don't believe you. That may be a heart-warming side-effect of captive breeding but that's not the reason people began doing it in the first place. Do I want to "rape nature" as you so dramatically put it? Nope. I don't own a single WC animal and couldn't be bothered to get one either, it's more trouble than it's worth to me.

So tell me, if you do it all for the love of Mother Earth then why snakes? Why not pandas? Or rare penguins or endangered plankton? Why not just join Greenpeace? Could it be that you are just personally interested in snakes because of your own personal tastes? I don't think that is a bad thing, I'm just saying don't lie to yourself about your own motives, not that I care one way or the other what your motives are. Those motives, again, may not be economic but they are certainly self-centred, at least I am willing to admit that.

[Nett]

Originally posted by JuliusSqueezer
Nett...How many generations do you "linebreed"? Do you know how many generations were "linebred" before you obtained your breeding stock? When you feel enough is enough do you take steps to ensure that the offspring that leaves your facility will not be inbred further? Too many people think that inbreeding only counts during the time they are in control of the situation. It simply isn't the case. What happened before and what happens after still counts.

I "linebreed" ....when I do it ....... for a total of 3 generations......Then I out breed.......Now I can only be as sure as the breeders I buy from or as sure as the blood lines I produce myself.......No more no less....... I cant keep track of all the thousands of babies I have produced in the last 15 yrs to make sure that they arent "linebred" further.......But if I have "linebred" them for 3 generations I dont sell pairs of offspring to the same person .....Thats about as sure as I can be ........

[MouseKilla]

Marisa,

I think you need to look at why we care about nature in the first place. It is a question of human survival and nothing more. We are interested in preserving nature because we depend on it to live. If we destoy enough habitat and enough species we could be next. Should that happen the earth will go on without us in one way or another. Nature doesn't need people, people need nature.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Killa...please say "I" and not "We"...thank you in advance.

[MouseKilla]

Sure, I'll do that if you answer my questions and state what your motives really are. I'd love to hear what other reason we all have for saving poor old Mother Earth than to save our own asses.

[NewLineReptile]

Originally posted by JuliusSqueezer
Killa...please say "I" and not "We"...thank you in advance.

If thats the case could you spell NO ONE not noone

And i really think you should get off your HIGH HORSE and stop being such an @ss when people state their opinion

I don't care if you say you have 31 years in this because that means $HIT that does not make you know it all. This bullShit thread needs to be taken out.

Reason is 2 of you are just NO IT ALLS and just like to bitch back and forth to see who knows more.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh..ok...so when someone tells ME something that I KNOW is wrong...I should just not say anything ...no debating allowed. Just take the first advice given and not give other views or stand up for what I believe in...How does anyone ever learn anything that way? What point would a forum be if it's just for ..."oh wow pretty snake" posts? I don't KNOW everything. Jeff doesn't KNOW everything ...Mousekilla...well let's just leave him out of this LOL...Why do people keep opening threads that they don't want to read anymore?

NewLine...when you feel a need to correct spelling for others, please check your own spelling, grammar and punctuation before you hit "enter".

And why am I on the high horse? Am I not entitled to an opinion too? Is calling someone an @ss when they don't agree with BS what your purpose here is? Neat job. Does it pay well?

[marisa]

"So you're trying to tell me that you breed snakes for the sole, selfless purpose of taking the pressure off wild populations?? Sorry, don't believe you"

I am not trying to get you to believe anything. You are really making this far more dramatic then I intended it to be.

I never said *I* do it only to help out the wild populations or totally unselfishly. Please do NOT put words in my mouth.

I CLEARLY stated in plain English I understood your point but simply do not believe EVERYONE has selfish motives for breeding snakes. Sorry I won't agree with your generalization. That's all. I am not trying to argue with you, and I certaintly did NOT state me or anyone else I know is not doing it for selfish reasons. I believe 99% of herpers probably do it with dollars signs or selfish reasons behind it. I stated one example of a man who I think is not doing it for selfish reasons.

There is no arguement against you or me. It's a point of view. I am accepting yours, and hopefully you would be accepting mine.

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by JuliusSqueezer
Neat job. Does it pay well?

HAHAHA! that was pretty witty, you sure you're not Canadian?