Can humidity be too high?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by SoPhilly

Are you using the sphangum moss just in the hides or all over? I agree with Albert, I have my CRB on cypress mulch for substrate, moss in hides, misting system that automatically goes on when humidity drops to 90%, (she's in a modified aquarium until she's big enough for her adult pvc enclosure)and I've never had mold anywhere since switching to that setup. Also never had anything other than full sheds with eyecaps. The cypress resists mold really well. Thumbs-up recommend.

Yes I use a light cover of sphagnum moss, to try to aid in it drying out. The new stuff I just got gone over a month now and just now needs to be changed, but I have yet to see cypress mulch anywhere where I live. I have a choice between EcoEarth, moss, sand, aspen, and pine/cedar. Of which only two I would use for any of my snakes. Lowe's or similar may carry cypress mulch idk, but I don't know if I'd trust it either.

[SoPhilly]

This is the stuff I use, you should be able to find it at any petsmart or petco, or on amazon. If you're interested


Forest Floor™ Bedding

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by SoPhilly

This is the stuff I use, you should be able to find it at any petsmart or petco, or on amazon. If you're interested


Forest Floor™ Bedding

I haven't seen that anywhere around here, not even at Petsmart or Petco. It will end up being more expensive to use it if it ends up molding on me, too, but I can order some online and try it. One thing of moss is ~$5, and one 14.4 liter bag is about the same as 3 of the sphagnum moss bags but is ~$17 on Amazon without shipping. If it doesn't mold, it should save me money, though.

The only enclosures that I have a mold problem in are my flexwatt-heated ones. :/

[jarich]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

I have yet to figure out how to completely stop mold in my BRB's enclosure. Both sphagnum moss and EcoEarth have molded on me. I have to completely switch the bedding out every few weeks, and it's getting expensive. I've tried adding more air holes, I've tried keeping the bedding completely dry and just spraying a little, I've tried getting a larger flexwatt to increase the area that's heated so maybe more will evaporate...nothing's worked for me. I'll probably see mold all the time until I start heating him with an RHP in his adult enclosure, which should dry out the bedding before it starts molding.

Have you considered using bioactive soil? It helps keep humidity constant, self regulates mold, and allows for more natural behaviour and immunity. Just a thought...

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by jarich

Have you considered using bioactive soil? It helps keep humidity constant, self regulates mold, and allows for more natural behaviour and immunity. Just a thought...

I have actually, I just don't know anything about it and it will take awhile of research to get it down. He's also in a temporary tub, so it could either be too small for a successful bioactive substrate, or he won't be in it long enough to bother. These guys do grow extremely slowly from what I've seen, though, so since he can stay in it until he's 3.5', he may not need to be moved out until he's like 3 years old.

He also likes to burrow, so I'm not sure if that would affect the substrate badly or not.

[ARCH3R]

I've never converted to true bioactive soil for many reasons, and I rarely see anyone put the cons so I will.

I admit to the benefits when done properly, and these are my viewpoints. I'm not putting my snakes in harm by not converting (trust me, their health comes first)

1-Decreases the beauty of the snake, especially with BRBs and they're curved irredescent scalation that catches dirt.
2- The introduction of isopods/detritivores CAN introduce parasites that are VERY hard to get rid of. If utilizing wood mites they can be easily mistaken for reptile mites.
3- If done properly then either PH must be checked consistently or most of the substrate needs to be changed 3-9 months depending on the insects, plants or soil used within. (To be fair normal substrate should be changed more often, but there's no concern of insects remaining when exchanging soil)
4- Due to all things above, it's just not easier than regular substrate. I spot check every couple days, I bake my substrate and clean the cages every month. To me that's not too difficult or time consuming.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by ARCH3R

I've never converted to true bioactive soil for many reasons, and I rarely see anyone put the cons so I will.

I admit to the benefits when done properly, and these are my viewpoints. I'm not putting my snakes in harm by not converting (trust me, their health comes first)

1-Decreases the beauty of the snake, especially with BRBs and they're curved irredescent scalation that catches dirt.
2- The introduction of isopods/detritivores CAN introduce parasites that are VERY hard to get rid of. If utilizing wood mites they can be easily mistaken for reptile mites.
3- If done properly then either PH must be checked consistently or most of the substrate needs to be changed 3-9 months depending on the insects, plants or soil used within. (To be fair normal substrate should be changed more often, but there's no concern of insects remaining when exchanging soil)
4- Due to all things above, it's just not easier than regular substrate. I spot check every couple days, I bake my substrate and clean the cages every month. To me that's not too difficult or time consuming.

I appreciate your concerns and am glad to be able to alleviate them. I have all mine on bioactive soil and have for years now, so let me go through your list.

1. Not a problem. Soil should, like in the wild, have a covering of some sort, be it leaf litter, live moss or plants, etc. Also, a bioactive soil develops horizons over time. This means that the top layer will tend to sort of crust over, again like you see in the wild. That means you dont have to worry about 'dirty' snakes, unless they like to dig.

2. Not sure which parasites you would be referring to here. However, pretty universally, parasites that come with invertebrates do not parasitize vertebrates. Ive seen people refer to what you speak of when feeding crickets, but again its not true. You are more likely to give your snake parasites than the invertebrates you put in an enclosure. Generally speaking though, reptile parasites come from other reptiles, and are often so host specific that lizard parasites do not bother snakes or vice versa.
However, the interesting benefit with bioactive enclosures is that they will naturally counter the reintroduction of some common reptile parasites. Soil nemotodes and other substrate inhabitants will actually consume or outcompete some reptile parasites. Ive never had trouble telling reptile mites from wood mites, however, when you get reptile mites you can also use natural predatory/carnivorous mites against them too. Nature is handy that way.

3. If done properly, the system will function well enough that you do not have to check pH constantly or change the soil at all. Soil can be thought of like aquarium water. When its first set up it takes awhile for the bacteria/nitrogen cycle to bloom and grow. Once its set up properly though, its just a matter of making sure you arent overdoing it. I have multiple enclosures that have had the same substrate for years. When I open the door it smells like forest, not waste.

4. While I would disagree about the difficulty, ease is not really the main point. Bioactive enclosures, when done well, are healthier. What we are finding out about our, and pretty much every animal's, interaction with the soil is that it is healthier for us in the long run. Sterile environments generally mean a lowered immune function. I understand its not for everyone. They are not the easiest set up, and getting the soil right means treating the enclosure almost like another animal. It requires care, supervision and maintenance. In exchange though, you get a living biota, and an understanding of whole animal health in a way you cannot really understand in a sterile environment that has no interaction. I cant say enough good things about it.

[Sasha2]

I have a digital hygrometer that is brand new.I'm going to put a few more holes in the sides and see how that helps.
I havent decided if I am keeping him, he was given to me with the ball python I bought.
If I do I wonder if a cage like a boaphile or animal plastics might work better then a tub? He is pretty cool but my main focus is the balls and corns.

[Snakesitter]

Digital are usually pretty accurate. The reading may be so high because the setup is relatively new, so there is still lots of initial moisture present. After a thorough viv cleaning and moss change I get a high spike, too, which fades away over a few days.

Boaphile and Animal Plastics are the best vivs for this species.

Add holes if you feel appropriate, but I would do so sparingly...easy to add, hard to take away.

Good luck!

[Albert Clark]

Try using 100% cypress mulch. One of the top substrates.

[Sasha2]

LOL, is that your planted tank Snakesitter? Its pretty awesome looking.


I really dont care for cypress mulch. The only stuff I can find is walmart stuff and its just a bunch of big sharp slivers.I dont even think its real cypress anymore.
Im really thinking about doing the bio substrate in my 40 gallon breeder until he is older. I will need help with setting it up to hold humidity. Probably build my own lid with plexiglass.
Our house is warm so will only need a basking site. I worry more about it being too warm for him.

[Snakesitter]

Nope, internet photo. ;-)

For moss, I highly recommend sphagnum. It pretty much never molds.

For substrate, I'd go with coco husk, orchid bark, or eco earth.

Good luck!

[Sasha2]

I used the bioactive soil once but not long enough to see any benefits(it was with a ball python).
Ive got all the ingredients together now, organic hummus, sand and gravel. I intend to put it together this weekend but then I have to order springtails so it will be awhile yet before I get Dante in the tank. I have to get a piece of plexiglass for the lid too.
I think that the risk of parasites from isopods or springtails is seriously low if possible at all, maybe with earthworms gathered from the yard.The whole point of a planted or bioactive substrate is to get away from the sterile lab style of keeping a snake. Yes it more work at the beginning but in the long run it should be less work.
Anyway its worth a go, especially with one snake.

[Snakesitter]

Good luck -- please keep us posted on how it goes!

[jarich]

I agree, it's refreshing to have a discussion instead of a pissing contest. Thanks for the discussion.

You're right in saying the bioactive environment allows various inhabitants, that are often seen as bad, to live within the cycle. However, its important to remember that in a balanced system they both live together and are adapted to do so. Healthy animals often have coccidia. It's not a problem though as its kept in check by their immune system. It's only when something else hinders their immune system that it can become problematic. It's important to remember that these animals have evolved in symbiosis with these parasites, to the point where normal digestive function is aided, and even in some cases reliant on this connection. There are reptiles that actually require exposure to adults faeces in order to survive or thrive. Perhaps more than we realize.

As for your other point about the soil, I don't think it really is that rare once it's set up well. And admittedly that's the kicker. I really think that aquarium water is the best analogy. With fish tanks, it's become normal and we'll understood, so the process is easily taught. I don't know why soil can't be the same. It's really not that difficult, and realistically it's much simpler over time than constant sterilization. Once that nitrogen cycle is stable, keeping it going is just habit, or even just timers. If I'm totally honest, my longest running bioactive enclosure is mostly timers, with me just adding leaf litter sometimes and occasionally turning the soil.

The other thing to remember is that these things are adapted to hardship. The plants, soil, animals etc that are part of this cycle are forgiving to our shortfalls as keepers because nature is much less forgiving and regular. I have mister systems and timers for heat and lighting so that it's a regular system that all grows together. Nature is full of droughts, floods, heat waves and such that make our shortcomings generally within reason as long as it's not too extreme or too long. Most house plants are quite resilient, as are most common reptiles. Not that we should rely on this, but it means if your soil pH drops for a short time, it's not the end of the world. And indeed, with a deeper substrate, like with a bigger fish tank, these things are less likely to fluctuate. As a counterpoint, I'd say nature is resilient, and will fight to survive. Our toughest job is to keep from killing it.

It's the one feature of de Vosjoli's book I slightly disagree with. He recommended a soil of 4-6". I'd say the deeper the better. While the deeper soil will get less aeration, so is more likely to become balanced towards the anaerobic bacteria, the depth allows for less fluctuations in moisture, pH and therefore general soil health. I think a soil of around 8-10" is a good minimum to maintain.

Regarding your last point, have you looked at the Biology of the Reptilia series edited by Carl Gans? It's absolutely revealing and I think one of the best collected works on the internal workings of these animals available. They've made online access absolutely free now and I couldn't possibly suggest anything more. I wish I would've had access to it decades ago! Here's the link:

Biology of the Reptilia: Table of Contents - Gans Collections and Charitable Fund