Varanids Counting and other intelligent things

[infernalis]

The PDF is fine, opened it twice from that link just now.

[formica]

been thinking about things to build into the new enclosure, and things to test

building on the idea that some monitors can count, I wonder if it would be possible to get a monitor to work through say 2 or 3 levers, that have to be turned in a specific order, to get to a food item

and perhaps to test food preferences, and building on their ability to distinguish between different door triggers; say 3 levers, each a different color, and each opening one of 3 doors, each containing a different type of food - if they can learn that only one door will open each day, will they be choosy about which lever they press in order to access a certain type of food? probably easy to train, assuming that a monitor can be trained in this way...cats for eg, when presented with 3 doors where only one offers food, dont do well learning which one contains the food, unlike dogs, who learn quickly

Lastly, a small box, which can only be opened by carrying it up to a high point in the enclosure, and pushing it off, in order to ''break'' it and get to the food item...some challenges to over come in designing this kind of box and training the monitor to understand the process, but could be interesting

[mdfmonitor]

My monitor will come to his name, especially now he's not been fed for two days!!


My monitor if fed 4 chicks on the run for about 4 days will look at me for a long time if fed 3 on the 5th day, this is why i swop food items around to stop the routine.

This is why i hide food items in the cage & still feed crickets even though he's 4.5 long, keep him looking & working for food.

I nearly got you a vid showing Lenny going in the direction on command, I've got him to do it a 3/3 times regularly, say forward he'll look forward & start walking forward & find a food reward, say behind he'd look behind & see or walk till he sees food reward, large locust worked best.

it is a case of catching him in the right mood, is he willing to corporate with me & certain food items worked best, he did it once off vid about 6/7 times, i've yet to film it, but i keeping having ago with it.

I'm sure he also watches my line of eye, because i'll look at insects that aren't moving that he can't see, i spend many hours just sat next to cage!!

the work out vid tests Lenny's brain & physical development, if the trap door was smoother & built better he'd open it every time for food, once he'd worked it out, no good to me i want those claws & forelimbs to work!!

you built a box & ticked all the boxes, now think what you can do to enhance their life experiences!!

[infernalis]

[formica]

Originally Posted by infernalis

nice, although thats a monitor searching for food, which doesnt quite test its intelligence in the same way, i dont think its any more demanding that say digging around in the ground, following a scent trail and scratching around in leaves




monitor called munchkin, lol

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by formica

nice, although thats a monitor searching for food, which doesnt quite test its intelligence in the same way, i dont think its any more demanding that say digging around in the ground, following a scent trail and scratching around in leaves




monitor called munchkin, lol

I think it's more on the lines of something different, a different experience with different safe material!

[formica]

Originally Posted by mdfmonitor

My monitor will come to his name, especially now he's not been fed for two days!!


My monitor if fed 4 chicks on the run for about 4 days will look at me for a long time if fed 3 on the 5th day, this is why i swop food items around to stop the routine.

This is why i hide food items in the cage & still feed crickets even though he's 4.5 long, keep him looking & working for food.

I nearly got you a vid showing Lenny going in the direction on command, I've got him to do it a 3/3 times regularly, say forward he'll look forward & start walking forward & find a food reward, say behind he'd look behind & see or walk till he sees food reward, large locust worked best.

it is a case of catching him in the right mood, is he willing to corporate with me & certain food items worked best, he did it once off vid about 6/7 times, i've yet to film it, but i keeping having ago with it.

I'm sure he also watches my line of eye, because i'll look at insects that aren't moving that he can't see, i spend many hours just sat next to cage!!

the work out vid tests Lenny's brain & physical development, if the trap door was smoother & built better he'd open it every time for food, once he'd worked it out, no good to me i want those claws & forelimbs to work!!

you built a box & ticked all the boxes, now think what you can do to enhance their life experiences!!

look forward to a video when you manage it!

I wonder if monitors can be click trained, i'm sure I read something about a similar technique somewhere with monitors

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by formica

look forward to a video when you manage it!

I wonder if monitors can be click trained, i'm sure I read something about a similar technique somewhere with monitors

Had a go tonight, you can clearly see him look for food with his tongue & head direction when i say forward, but he may look for food at the right time to any verbal noise i make.

First he looked forward then he looked behind him which was the command i gave & he got the reward, he clicked what was going on & followed the next behind command straight away so he was facing in the right direction, i then had to give a forward command when his head was facing the right direction, he respond straight to the reward item.

I then had a food item about (locust medium) 3/4 foot way, thrown in earlier & gave the forward command, he looked but gave up because he couldn't see the item or he realised the viv door was open & he'd find bigger prey items there!! & he did (chick)

i then finished feeding another day old chick or two & closed the door, he went straight to the locust from earlier that he couldn't see in a dark area ( head pinched so they don't jump all over).

So did his logic & repetitive feeding override my command to go forward??

Not enough vid evidence at that, but enough to prove it worth keepers trying it with their mons!

[Starbuck]

You can buy some of the tips youre talking about in specialty dog stores, if a German Shepard can't destroy it I doubt a sav will. Obviously wouldn't leave him alone work out at first to make sure it'ssafe, but will probably save you time and money.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

You can buy some of the tips youre talking about in specialty dog stores, if a German Shepard can't destroy it I doubt a sav will. Obviously wouldn't leave him alone work out at first to make sure it'ssafe, but will probably save you time and money.

not sure what a 'tip' is? had a search thru google without much luck, is it a toy of some kind which offers food rewards?

[formica]

we all know how important it is, there is no need for every thread about monitors to go over the same thing over and over, at the expense of the topic at hand

[SnakeyJay]

Originally Posted by formica

we all know how important it is, there is no need for every thread about monitors to go over the same thing over and over, at the expense of the topic at hand

Fair enough, but as an outsider to varanid keeping I was just clarifying thing for my own benefit...

[Starbuck]

one of the methods they use to determine how intelligent a species is uses the recognition of self; they will paint a dot on an animals flank or forehead etc, and see if the animal sees the image in a mirror, recognizes that the image is 'self' and then investigates the dot.

While i personally think this test is selectively efficient for social animals, it may work for monitors. i think this would be really neat to see if monitors have this capacity; you could start by training them that if they touch a target (dot) they get food, then paint the target on the lizards side (or somewhere they could only see if the had a mirror, i.e. their chest?) and then see if the monitor makes an effort to touch the target on 'self' for the treat. The problem with monitors (and crows, and dolphins) is that they don't have hands or trunks (like chimps, people, and elephants) so it is more difficult to quantify an investigatory movement towards the dot vs. simple preening etc. i guess i'd have to do some more research, as I'm pretty sure dolphins and crows have 'passed' this test...

[formica]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

one of the methods they use to determine how intelligent a species is uses the recognition of self; they will paint a dot on an animals flank or forehead etc, and see if the animal sees the image in a mirror, recognizes that the image is 'self' and then investigates the dot.

While i personally think this test is selectively efficient for social animals, it may work for monitors. i think this would be really neat to see if monitors have this capacity; you could start by training them that if they touch a target (dot) they get food, then paint the target on the lizards side (or somewhere they could only see if the had a mirror, i.e. their chest?) and then see if the monitor makes an effort to touch the target on 'self' for the treat. The problem with monitors (and crows, and dolphins) is that they don't have hands or trunks (like chimps, people, and elephants) so it is more difficult to quantify an investigatory movement towards the dot vs. simple preening etc. i guess i'd have to do some more research, as I'm pretty sure dolphins and crows have 'passed' this test...

interesting, any suggestions for a safe paint to use?

monitors use their tongues to investigate things, that could potentially be a way to do it, they dont preen, so it should be obvious...but how do you paint a dot onto a monitor, without it realizing? so that it only spots it in a mirror...maybe it could be done while being distracted with a treat

I think cats do badly with this test aswel dont they?

[Starbuck]

Originally Posted by formica

interesting, any suggestions for a safe paint to use?

monitors use their tongues to investigate things, that could potentially be a way to do it, they dont preen, so it should be obvious...but how do you paint a dot onto a monitor, without it realizing? so that it only spots it in a mirror...maybe it could be done while being distracted with a treat

I think cats do badly with this test aswel dont they?

a lot of 'intelligent' animals cannot pass, i think less than 60% of elephants pass the test, as well as dogs. Im not sure of a safe paint, but i think a human fingerpaint would be ok? or just a colored sticker... i'd have to look up the papers again to follow through on the study, but the main idea is that it has to be somewhere on the body that the animal can ONLY see it on a mirror, not just by turning their head (so i don't think a flank would work on a monitor). You can always apply the paint mark and wait for it to dry before doing the test, so the monitor no longer feels the wetness of the paint.