The UVB Varanid debate !

[mdfmonitor]

Nice one Wayne!! (pic)

I would like to know that this study of uv lights etc who's monitors was it carried out on, zoos usually take blood tests regularly & i'm not sure that the ones that rely on human generated lighting are as fit as some of the wild monitors or captive monitors been offered 160f basking sites & good background temps.

I'm sure this would make a difference on the result, there's no way i could take blood tests off my Lenny without stressing the hell out of him & upsetting his routines etc.

I can only offer short time results, but taking a 16" argus monitor to over 4 foot in 8 months with no uv exposure most tell you something, i do use vitd & pure calcium on & off depending on growth rate. Many good experience reliable keepers have told me provide a good basking site & you won't have a problem!!

Now for food, food is mass produced nowadays & power fed to make them efficient for business purposes, with this in mind i wouldn't dare stop feeding added vitamins to my argus. I do use natural food, but even trout is forced grown to make them cheaper to produce.

I just don't think they are as good quality food as animals/fish grown at a natural speed.

but again if you can fit uv in & want it crack on with it!!

[formica]

I use a full spectrum CFL bulb, E28 fitting, alongside my heat lamps, doesnt add any extra heat at all; if anyone is looking for a simple solution to add alongside their heat lamps.

I'm not a fan of tubes tbh, I wouldnt trust my Sav not to try and climb one (ie rip it off the wall, break it and breath in lots of mercury and phosphorus!), he doesnt pay any attention to the CFL, i think because it is next to the heat lamps, which are very hot, and he knows it

Considering a monitor's resilience, I think the fact that they can survive into old age without UV, is something which should be considered with caution, given that there hasnt been a proper scientific study into the topic - however, there has been a study which has shown that UV does affect positively, the level of D3, in Varanids with a (controlled) deficiency of the vitamin...i posted the link up some time ago in another thread, will find it again if anyones interested or cant find it in search.

I dont think we should we consider all varanids to react in the same way to UV either, given their wide habitat distribution and evolutionary age, there is no reason to think they havent each evolved their own adaptions to it

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by formica

Considering a monitor's resilience, I think the fact that they can survive into old age without UV, is something which should be considered with caution, given that there hasnt been a proper scientific study into the topic - however, there has been a study which has shown that UV does affect positively, the level of D3, in Varanids with a (controlled) deficiency of the vitamin...i posted the link up some time ago in another thread, will find it again if anyones interested or cant find it in search.

I dont think we should we consider all varanids to react in the same way to UV either, given their wide habitat distribution and evolutionary age, there is no reason to think they havent each evolved their own adaptions to it

Hi, I`d like to see the article you mention (thanks).
As far as studies being carried on captive Varanids kept under "optimum" conditions for extended periods as we now understand those to be, I don`t think there are any?

[formica]

i think this is it: http://varanidae.org/1_2-Current_Research.pdf ...its only the preliminary, i dont know what they found by the end of the study, cant find anything further

Originally Posted by Preliminary Results

Deprivation of all sources of vitamin D3
resulted in an average of 30% depletion of circulating calcidiol
in approximately two months.

A single dose of dietary vitamin D3
or UVB resulted in a significant peak of increase in calcidiol at an
average of seven days with return to baseline in an average of 14 days.

(error in my previous post, wasnt D3 that was directly measured, a metabolite of D3 was measured, calicidiol)

[murrindindi]

I did have an article but I think I sent it to someone, the title was something like "Update on vitamin D3 in basking Lizards", I`m not sure it`s available to view online, it concerned a Komodo dragon (or several) which had not had access to real or artificial UVB for some time, they found after exposure to an MVB (I think?) for around 3 months the D3 levels compared to those of wild komodoensis (they were in single figures prior to exposure). The "problem" with this study (possibly others at that time) is that this was well before current practices re temps, humidity, etc were in place, that would undoubtably effect the results, because the monitor`s didn`t have sufficient basking temps and perhaps an "inferior" diet.
Edit: This is the article, it HAS been published, as I say I used to have a copy...

1) Allen, M.E., M.F. Hoilck, M. Bush, O.T. Oftedal, R. Rosscoe, and
T. Walsh.
An update on vitamin D and ultraviolet light in basking lizards.
Unpublished data. 4 pp

[formica]

Yeah I saw that one while searching, havent had a chance to read thru it yet, i did notice it was only a few animals, the topic really needs a wider data set (as has been done for bearded dragons with clear conclusions)

insectivores are generally known to be much more efficient at using UV, than carnivores, and therefore it is generally a more important componant; monitors eating both, does throw up interesting questions, livers are full of nutriants including Vit D3 - would be good to find out what happened with the study as it progressed, they asked some interesting questions which really do need answers, considering how polarized the topic is

[mdfmonitor]

Not keen on cfl bulbs, had a day light one set high in the roof of an old cage & the heat damaged the casing!! fell apart, also i've had at least 3 mercury vapours go ping because they couldn't hack the humidity.

There's some heat generated when you start putting a number of bulbs together, that's why you need a sealed viv it creates it's own exchange of air from hot to cooler temps, which reduces you humidity around the basking bulbs.

As for vitd, i was always told give them 130f plus (depending on size) & this will allow them to digest the food & process the vit d, you can control the vitd using uvb light but you still need high basking spot floods to digest the food.

When the monitor starts getting larger you need some bulbs & wattage to cover snout to vent, ad in other lights your just upping the burn off of humidity.

160f is a good basking spot flood to aim for & if Krusty & Frank & other long term keepers say you don't need it but use it if you want to,that will do me!!

[formica]

Originally Posted by mdfmonitor

Not keen on cfl bulbs, had a day light one set high in the roof of an old cage & the heat damaged the casing!! fell apart, also i've had at least 3 mercury vapours go ping because they couldn't hack the humidity.

There's some heat generated when you start putting a number of bulbs together, that's why you need a sealed viv it creates it's own exchange of air from hot to cooler temps, which reduces you humidity around the basking bulbs.

As for vitd, i was always told give them 130f plus (depending on size) & this will allow them to digest the food & process the vit d, you can control the vitd using uvb light but you still need high basking spot floods to digest the food.

When the monitor starts getting larger you need some bulbs & wattage to cover snout to vent, ad in other lights your just upping the burn off of humidity.

160f is a good basking spot flood to aim for & if Krusty & Frank & other long term keepers say you don't need it but use it if you want to,that will do me!!

Yep, Kidneys process D3 into Calcitriol, its a vital process, and going by the apparent connection between low basking temps and kidney failure (and calcification? bilateral tumours? i wonder what results have come up on mojo), temps are clearly an important factor, but it requires Vitamin D3 to be in the system first, either via diet, or UV, or possibly both


it has been quite a long time since I came across a heat damaged CFL casing, some years ago it was common to find burnt/brittle/cracked casings, even from their own heat, unsuitable plastic in early designs i think, not come across the issue recently

Originally Posted by smy_749

I would like to keep this conversation going, some good info in here so far. Anyways, as for my experiment, I think I've ruined it. I changed all furnishings and design of the enclosure, and tomorrow I'm introducing a new female. So I don't exactly have a control anymore :/

still some observations to be had tho!

[smy_749]

I would like to keep this conversation going, some good info in here so far. Anyways, as for my experiment, I think I've ruined it. I changed all furnishings and design of the enclosure, and tomorrow I'm introducing a new female. So I don't exactly have a control anymore :/

[B_Aller]

Originally Posted by smy_749

I would like to keep this conversation going, some good info in here so far.

I'll add my 2 cents then.
I don't use any UVB or supplementation of any kind at all, ever.
My animals have set longevity and reproduction records for their species.

I feel strongly that most of the UVB bulbs and supplements are garbage, I've never seen any benefit for my animals personally.
Sure, when I first started in '93 I bought and used Vita lites, then repti-suns then a handful of other types, metal halide, High pressure sodium, all that. I also used supplements.... repti-cal and whatever that one with the frilled dragon on the label was Ket something or other.....?
But..as I progressed and learned what was truly important and actually benefiting the animals all that nonsense fell by the wayside. I learned that big temp gradients, deep substrate of the proper type, larger enclosures with better humidity gradients and a whole bodied natural prey based diet with some variety was WAY more important than any cheap arsed bulb or dusty white powder.
Once you gain some experinence and trust in yourself and the animals you find that just plain hard work, common sense and observation will serve you much better than anything mass produced and packaged with a reptile in the logo.
I've never heard of a true long term varanid keeper who uses UVB or supplements.
Best.

[murrindindi]

Hi Ben, I agree with almost everything you say except "there are no true long term Varanid keepers using UVB or supplements". I seem to remember Mr. F. Retes mentioning that he has/does offer some of his pygmy monitors (gravid females) supplementary calcium at times (I hope I`m not mistaken in either that he does, or including him in "true long term keepers")!?

[jarich]

I find it interesting that this is still a contentious issue. The argument seems to be that if you can see it, it has an effect, but if you cant, then it has no effect. I must be in the minority as I cant seem to visualize the chemistry of my monitors blood.

There is now a vast wealth of knowledge about Vit D synthesis and its effects on health, and how light and nutrition effects this cycle. That wealth of knowledge is quite plain. For all animals that can synthesize Vit D in their skin from UV exposure, they all gain health benefits from said exposure. Monitors skin synthesizes Vit D (as does snake skin by the way), therefore to remain at optimal health they require UV exposure. Supplements can help increase these levels, but much, much less so and with their own very real dangers. I agree with Ben that supplements are never the best way forward.

However, saying that you have monitors that are older or have reproduced is not proof when speaking about serum metabolite levels. This is not necessarily a difference of life or death, but merely that of optimal health vs sub optimal health. For instance, we Western humans are almost universally Vit D deficient, however, we still procreate generations down the line and can live to be quite old. Does that mean we arent still Vit D deficient and affected by that deficiency in our health? Absolutely not. The effects of Vit D deficiency are not always visible, (though sometimes they are) since it is a hormone that affects many systems in the body, sometimes in subtle ways. They are not direct effects you would even necessarily know to attach to this cycle. However, they absolutely still have an effect.

With advances in reptile lighting, while still no substitute for natural sunlight, it makes this exposure quite simple. Studies have shown its not even a huge amount of exposure they need. In fact, if you have the option of allowing them outside for the summer months on a regular basis, this is likely enough to keep their levels up year round. Vit D metabolite levels seem to hold steady for about 3 months after exposure in reptiles and only slowly drop after that. So to me its a no brainer. Its easy to provide and it has health benefits, even if I cant see them. So why not provide them? Why argue against it?

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by jarich

I find it interesting that this is still a contentious issue. The argument seems to be that if you can see it, it has an effect, but if you cant, then it has no effect. I must be in the minority as I cant seem to visualize the chemistry of my monitors blood.

For all animals that can synthesize Vit D in their skin from UV exposure, they all gain health benefits from said exposure. Monitors skin synthesizes Vit D (as does snake skin by the way), therefore to remain at optimal health they require UV exposure.
With advances in reptile lighting, while still no substitute for natural sunlight, it makes this exposure quite simple. Studies have shown its not even a huge amount of exposure they need. In fact, if you have the option of allowing them outside for the summer months on a regular basis, this is likely enough to keep their levels up year round. Vit D metabolite levels seem to hold steady for about 3 months after exposure in reptiles and only slowly drop after that. So to me its a no brainer. Its easy to provide and it has health benefits, even if I cant see them. So why not provide them? Why argue against it?

Hi Josh,
I`d like to ask these questions: Which studies have been completed on Varanids kept for relatively long periods (for the sake of argument 10 years +, which is certainly enough time have a detrimental effect on health if there is one), in what some of us now consider minimum supportive conditions (sufficient ambient and basking temps, a "proper" humidity range, nutritious whole prey diet, relatively deep substrate etc, etc)?
I somewhat disagree when you assert they NEED it to remain in "optimal" health if kept as descibed? How many have you raised from hatchling to the above age and over, kept under the above conditions with or without UVB or supplementation and had tested to note any difference?

Are some/most/all captive and mainly nocturnal snakes deficient in their levels too (not in optimal health), if artificial/real UVB or supplementation aren`t provided?
Though it must be said that it`s doubtful the overwhelming majority of keepers actually bother to have them tested, do you have any info on similar studies in these animals?
As per usual, I`m only asking because I love to learn more....

[B_Aller]

I wasn't aware that Frank used supplements, I don't follow his writing(ranting) so I probably shouldn't have made such a sweeping generalization.I'll say the longterm keepers that I know don't use supplements.

For jarich,
While it may be a certainty that humans and captive varanids are VitD deficient, I have not seen or read of any actual benefits from even the latest reptile bulbs. From what I understand even under optimum conditions 6 months under the best lights is equal to less than 15 min of natural sunlight exposure. I prefer to focus on the common sense husbandry areas that my personal experience has shown me to be more important and relevant than expensive bulbs and powders. I'm not saying don't YOU do it, just that I don't use them. Usually when the focus is on fancy lights and vitamin powders the animals show sub optimal health...that I can see, have seen and continue to see. What I don't see much of is the basic hard work of varanid husbandry. What I don't get is why I should be worried about a problem I don't have? I don't use supplements or UVB and I'm not having health issues or reproductive problems with my animals. If I start having problems I will certainly look into what I can do to improve the lives of my captives, including blood work if necessary, as I have done in the past. . Until I see the need I will continue to focus on what I see as important, too me that does not include UVB, supplements, or blood work.
Thanks.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

I wasn't aware that Frank used supplements, I don't follow his writing(ranting) so I probably shouldn't have made such a sweeping generalization.I'll say the longterm keepers that I know don't use supplements.

For jarich,
While it may be a certainty that humans and captive varanids are VitD deficient, I have not seen or read of any actual benefits from even the latest reptile bulbs. From what I understand even under optimum conditions 6 months under the best lights is equal to less than 15 min of natural sunlight exposure. I prefer to focus on the common sense husbandry areas that my personal experience has shown me to be more important and relevant than expensive bulbs and powders. I'm not saying don't YOU do it, just that I don't use them. Usually when the focus is on fancy lights and vitamin powders the animals show sub optimal health...that I can see, have seen and continue to see. What I don't see much of is the basic hard work of varanid husbandry. What I don't get is why I should be worried about a problem I don't have? I don't use supplements or UVB and I'm not having health issues or reproductive problems with my animals. If I start having problems I will certainly look into what I can do to improve the lives of my captives, including blood work if necessary, as I have done in the past. . Until I see the need I will continue to focus on what I see as important, too me that does not include UVB, supplements, or blood work.
Thanks.

Hi Ben,

First, let me say I follow your breeding of these beautiful creatures and know youre very experienced. Im not trying to question your abilities in that regard or say you are by any means a bad keeper. That would obviously be a stupid thing to say. Im merely saying that this is a way of adding to our level of care for these very complex animals that doesnt seem to be standard yet and the arguments against it seem to be very lacking, scientifically speaking.

If you have not read of any benefits from UVB lights, I guess my question would be then, what are you reading? Any recent studies on UV exposure in reptiles, even from old technology, would show you that there is benefit from UVB exposure. Past technology provided less UV exposure than our present bulbs do, but just because its not as good as the sun doesnt mean it doesnt have some positive effects.

Granted its not natural sunlight, but then I didnt think that monitor husbandry was an 'all or nothing' type of thing. If I cant give my savannah a diet of giant tobacco crickets and millipedes should I just feed it nothing? Of course not, what I feed it is the best I can give them. I continue to research that and other parameters to know more and get better at it. No matter how healthy it appears to be, it will never be perfect, so I will never stop researching and trying to get better at caring for them. It does not mean that the extra lights I give them limit the food I feed them, or that the food I feed them limits my soil depth, or that the soil depth I give them limits the basking temperatures I offer. It is cumulative. I think that all in this thread would pretty much agree on the basic parameters of monitor enclosures as we know them now. This lighting is in addition to that, not detracting from it. I think it is unfair to suggest that by focusing on additional lighting, one must necessarily be lacking in other areas of care.

As for the comparison of the best lights to 15 minutes sun exposure, I dont know that Ive ever seen any way to quantify that exactly. Studies I have seen indicate that even just 2 hours a day of direct sunlight exposure bring Vit D metabolite levels up to natural levels in captive monitors. So if someone has the option of exposing their monitors to this amount per day, the UVB lights specifically seem like they may not be necessary. I dont know many keepers who have that option though, (I certainly dont, unfortunately) so we must work with what we have to provide as best we can.

Im not saying you should be worried about a problem you dont have. Im saying you should be aware of a problem you dont know exists, even if it is too subtle for you to see. Captivity without UVB exposure lowers their Vit D metabolite levels. There is no question of this. To answer your question Stefan, every valid study I have ever read on reptiles kept without UVB showed lowered Vit D levels compared to wild caught specimens tested. While its true that there arent huge number of them, the unanimity of it is telling. It also doesnt take ten years to show up, it takes months. Test every animal you have that is not exposed to a UVB source, they will be Vit D deficient. Since we know Vit D affects a wide range of systems like digestion, immunity, learning, etc the question is, why dont you want to look at how to bring those levels back up to natural ones? What possible reason could there be not to try?