Hands-on handling, positive and negative experience question

[formica]

So i've been following the hands-off method since getting my Sav, he'll happily perch on my arm and accept food, but still whips, and has even had a few goes at biting me recently, if I make the slightest movement, so I'm thinking about changing tactics - mainly because, if anything, he has become less trusting of me. for the first few weeks, I was able to pick him up when needed, without much fuss, the less i interacted with him, the less willing he seemed to be to put up with this, the last time i picked him up, having emlpoyed the hands off method for a while, I got a hand full of poop, its been a good few months since I tried anything beyond holding my arm out for him to climb and eat off

before people jump on me, I am fully aware of all the reasons behind the hands off method, its why I decieded to follow the method, we dont need to go over all that.

Changing tactic isnt something I am going to do today, tomorrow or even next month, its something I want to look into a little more - it seems that although not recommended by some, with reasonable assumptions to back it up, it certainly does give good results for some people - lets leave aside the issue of low basking tempretures, because for my Sav that will never been a concern.

The reason I am thinking about this, is because either it will work, and I'll end up with a Sav who will tolerate handling allot better, or it wont work, and we'll have the same relationship we have anyway, so I think its worth a shot, before he/she gets to big to even contemplate it.


So i'd love to hear peoples experiences using the hands-on method, as is used for other reptiles with great success - have you found it helped, or did it make your Sav less trusting? what was your method, how long did you try it for, and any other info you think might be of relevance, feel free to comment!




( Those with strong opinions on why this should not be done, please try to refrain from bashing people over their practices, both sides of the discussion are just as valid as the other, we should not try suppress the experiences of other people because they do not support our own opinions

I am inclined to believe that hands on can work for some Savs, just as it works for many snakes, and equally, for some snakes it will never work, polarizing the discussion wont really produce anything useful )

[Toothless]

If you are picking him up at all then it's not 'completely' hands off . I have only picked up my guy twice (he escaped and got stuck so I had to help him). I would say he's just started to except someone touching him (sometimes) after 1 1/2 years- mind you I don't interact with him every day.
The 'hands-on' approach seems to work pretty good for reptiles that are captive bred although I will probably always use the hands-off approach with any reptile (personal decision ). I think the reason hands-off is recommended for most monitors is due to the fact that quite a few are wild-caught, and also because they are so intelligent. This is only speculation as I'm not sure what the reason is besides the fact that it reduces stress.

I'd say keep trying the hands-off method. Many keepers with lots of experience have had great success with it and it makes for a stress-free lizard .
No experience with hands-on methods, so I won't comment on that .

[nepoez]

hehe, from what I've seen and from my experience it's really luck. I had owned other savs before and each behave completely different, and most are just not gonna tolerate. I got lucky with mine since it landed in my cage, well have had two and i kept the tame one: at the end of video he comes to me, as always not a fluke!

Originally Posted by formica

So i've been following the hands-off method since getting my Sav, he'll happily perch on my arm and accept food, but still whips, and has even had a few goes at biting me recently, if I make the slightest movement, so I'm thinking about changing tactics - mainly because, if anything, he has become less trusting of me. for the first few weeks, I was able to pick him up when needed, without much fuss, the less i interacted with him, the less willing he seemed to be to put up with this, the last time i picked him up, having emlpoyed the hands off method for a while, I got a hand full of poop, its been a good few months since I tried anything beyond holding my arm out for him to climb and eat off

before people jump on me, I am fully aware of all the reasons behind the hands off method, its why I decieded to follow the method, we dont need to go over all that.

Changing tactic isnt something I am going to do today, tomorrow or even next month, its something I want to look into a little more - it seems that although not recommended by some, with reasonable assumptions to back it up, it certainly does give good results for some people - lets leave aside the issue of low basking tempretures, because for my Sav that will never been a concern.

The reason I am thinking about this, is because either it will work, and I'll end up with a Sav who will tolerate handling allot better, or it wont work, and we'll have the same relationship we have anyway, so I think its worth a shot, before he/she gets to big to even contemplate it.


So i'd love to hear peoples experiences using the hands-on method, as is used for other reptiles with great success - have you found it helped, or did it make your Sav less trusting? what was your method, how long did you try it for, and any other info you think might be of relevance, feel free to comment!




( Those with strong opinions on why this should not be done, please try to refrain from bashing people over their practices, both sides of the discussion are just as valid as the other, we should not try suppress the experiences of other people because they do not support our own opinions

I am inclined to believe that hands on can work for some Savs, just as it works for many snakes, and equally, for some snakes it will never work, polarizing the discussion wont really produce anything useful )

[formica]

thanks for the comments guys

Toothless, no I've not been picking him up, only previously out of necessity a few times, my interactions with him, since he moved to his grow-on, have been nothing more than tong feeding and arm perching, and i feel his confidence in that time has been in decline


agreed Nepoez, i'm inclined to think its hit and miss aswell, the fact that I was able to handle him a few times early on, suggests that it may be worth trying, i've had plenty of snakes and lizards who needed allot of attention in this way, before they learned to tolerate interaction like that, both WC and CB, my Sav is WF, so at least it potentially shouldnt be as difficult as WC.

[Toothless]

Originally Posted by formica

thanks for the comments guys

Toothless, no I've not been picking him up, only previously out of necessity a few times, my interactions with him, since he moved to his grow-on, have been nothing more than tong feeding and arm perching, and i feel his confidence in that time has been in decline


agreed Nepoez, i'm inclined to think its hit and miss aswell, the fact that I was able to handle him a few times early on, suggests that it may be worth trying, i've had plenty of snakes and lizards who needed allot of attention in this way, before they learned to tolerate interaction like that, both WC and CB, my Sav is WF, so at least it potentially shouldnt be as difficult as WC.

I was just being smart :P. Was feeling a bit silly yesterday as I have a sick baby and havn't slept in 3 days.
It probably wouldn't hurt to give it a try and see if he tolerates handling. If he looks stressed, you can always go back to the hands-off (you know what to look for ).
My guy probably wouldn't like to be picked up, but I don't think it would stress him if I did it slowely- he seems quite settled in and doesn't spook easily anymore. I just havn't had the time to see how far he'll let me go with the handling thing.

[formica]

i dont expect him to like being picked up at all lol at least not initially - a few months ago there seemed to be some progress, he was more interactive, let me scratch his head a few times, but things have gone backwards and he's gotten bitey, without me trying to make any physical contact at all - something may have spooked him i guess, i dont know what tho, nothing has changed, and his behaviour hasnt changed apart from that

[Toothless]

Mine went through a 'regression' stage as well at about the 1 year mark. Started tail whipping, biting, etc. when before he had been pretty mild. He settled down after 4 months and is now even better than before.
Maybe they go through a whole 'teenager' thing? I know alot of mammals have a change in temperment briefly when they hit adolescents. Wonder if something similar happens with monis?

[nepoez]

I'm just glad my guy lets me interact with him in pretty much every way. He would let me pick him up if I wanted to but I personally don't like it, his claws really hurt now that he's so big and heavy. Even when I had a dog I don't pick it up, I don't know why people would want to pick a dog, lizard, or a human up. I'd hate it if someone picked me up off the floor lol.

[formica]

interesting Toothless, culd be right, could be a sign that hormones are kicking in

nepoez, i'm not about to start perching him on my shoulder lol, but, as I am looking into various regular check ups/tests with the vet, i would like to be able to reduce the amount of stress involved as much as possible

[murrindindi]

Hi, over the years I`ve found that the more you interact the more accepting of contact they often become (I know, that sounds rather obvious), but if you only do it occasionally it takes the animal that much longer to realise you aren`t a threat.
They don`t enjoy having their feet off the ground (as in when you pick them up), but in times many might learn to sit/lay quite calmly on your shoulders/chest for a short time.
I like to touch them on most parts of their body, not so much along the top of the back because during ritual combat or domination/submission they may rake each other on the dorsal surface. Also right between where the rear legs join the side of the body, and the face between the eye and tympanum, side or top of the neck.
One of the best ways to start is with food (as always), while they are actually eating touch/stroke them (not if they`re chasing the items on tongs! ), maybe while swallowing a mouse or other relatively large item.
I must make it clear this would not happen before acclimation, the monitor should not exhibit defensive posturing when you approach.
I have only a very few pics left (my computer crashed several years ago, I lost around 80% of my pics), so apologies if you`ve already seen the following....
This is my late Varanus ornatus (reached 230cm ToL), mass approx. 22kl (50lbs), claws approx. 3/4 inch long (many scratches), but he was ridiculously "trusting", but remember it takes much time and patience to get to this stage and never any guarantees it will!

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7173/6...89ed87e5_z.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5458/8...5e3b71e3_z.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2027/5...6ef34f49_z.jpg

[Akuma223]

Basically what murrindinni was saying, just interact with them everyday, not picking them up but just touching them here and there. Sometimes my Rudi is pissy so I will stroke his back while he swallows food. I think I have had good luck overall with my Rudi though, he has been a very easy animal to work with from the start.

Also, does anyone know where can I find information on social behavior in monitors? As murrindinni was saying about dominance stuff, I have noticed my boy do interesting things when I stroke his back.

[Toothless]

My guy doesn't seem to mind me gently patting his side at times, but I havn't tried to push my limit yet and see how far he'll let me go (mostly because I don't want to get bitten- YUP...I'm a wimp!! ).
I do talk to him everyday as I'm going about my housecleaning (he's in the livingroom)- he will sit at the door and listen quite often during the day.

[formica]

thanks for the comments - what you are describing, is what I have labeled the ''hands off'' method above, its what I have been doing, and he has become less and less tolerant of it, less trusting and more aggressive - i'm going to put it down to hormones for now, keep at it and see how things are in 'spring'

[Toothless]

I would keep at it a bit (I'm glad I did). I was stunned by his sudden change in attitude as well. He would literally lunge at me with mouth open every time I opened the enclosure- I started wearing large oven mitts just to make myself feel better. Before this I could let him climb out of the enclosure and explore with no problem. I pretty much ignored him for a while (a few months), and one day I noticed he was sitting my the door. He started comming up to investigate every time I opened the enclosure and his demenor changed.
It would be nice to know if experienced keepers have noticed a change in attitiude around the 1 year mark?

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by Akuma223

Also, does anyone know where can I find information on social behavior in monitors? As murrindinni was saying about dominance stuff, I have noticed my boy do interesting things when I stroke his back.

Hi, there are a number of scientific articles on the social behaviour of wild Varanids, also on ritual combat in a couple of species. I`m not sure these are available to view/download online but any decent library should be able to get copies in, then you can either borrow the paper or have photocopies done (it only costs a small amount).
If you`re seriously interested I`ll put a few titles up.