Hands-on handling, positive and negative experience question

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by Toothless

I would keep at it a bit (I'm glad I did). I was stunned by his sudden change in attitude as well. He would literally lunge at me with mouth open every time I opened the enclosure- I started wearing large oven mitts just to make myself feel better. Before this I could let him climb out of the enclosure and explore with no problem. I pretty much ignored him for a while (a few months), and one day I noticed he was sitting my the door. He started comming up to investigate every time I opened the enclosure and his demenor changed.
It would be nice to know if experienced keepers have noticed a change in attitiude around the 1 year mark?

Hi, I think it may be due to the fact they are becoming adult (sexually mature), and showing they are dominant would be part of that process.
In my experience with a variety of species over 30+ years I`ve actually never had one become more defensive towards me the older they got (always less so) I guess I must be doing it all wrong, so what`s your secret!?

[Toothless]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, I think it may be due to the fact they are becoming adult (sexually mature), and showing they are dominant would be part of that process.
In my experience with a variety of species over 30+ years I`ve actually never had one become more defensive towards me the older they got (always less so) I guess I must be doing it all wrong, so what`s your secret!?

Did any of the monitors you have been around show a sudden change in temperament when they became sexually mature?

My guy's pretty good now, and I think that if I had to I could pick him up without much fuss (maybe a few hisses), but I didn't do anything to make him that way besides ignoring him for a few months. I would hold the food quietly on the tongues, say hello, then close the door when he was done. I tried to change the water whenever he was sleeping or hiding otherwise I quickly reached in, grabbed it, and closed the door.
After a few months of this, his temperament suddenly changed again and he didn't seem bothered at all by me, or anyone for that matter. Strange people used to bother him and he would hiss and whip if they stood too close to the enclosure, but now he comes right up to the door and starts scratching. I think he's more comfortable now that he's larger and doesn't feel as threatened.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by Toothless

Did any of the monitors you have been around show a sudden change in temperament when they became sexually mature?

My guy's pretty good now, and I think that if I had to I could pick him up without much fuss (maybe a few hisses), but I didn't do anything to make him that way besides ignoring him for a few months. I would hold the food quietly on the tongues, say hello, then close the door when he was done. I tried to change the water whenever he was sleeping or hiding otherwise I quickly reached in, grabbed it, and closed the door.
After a few months of this, his temperament suddenly changed again and he didn't seem bothered at all by me, or anyone for that matter. Strange people used to bother him and he would hiss and whip if they stood too close to the enclosure, but now he comes right up to the door and starts scratching. I think he's more comfortable now that he's larger and doesn't feel as threatened.

Hi, as I said my monitors have all got calmer the older and bigger they`ve got, but then I`m very regularly having physical contact with them (the touching/stroking) which obviously means they are used to that so don`t act defensively at all when it happens.
My present Asian Water monitor is extremely calm outside the enclosure, moreso than inside at times, but that`s because "outside" isn`t his "house" as such, though he is very familiar with the surroundings now (has learned there`s nothing to threaten his existence on the "outside").
In other words, in the wild they know their home range extremely well, but their places of safety are their hides.
There`s no doubt that they react to our emotions, perhaps he picked up on your nervousness and felt threatened?

[nepoez]

Maybe cut their tail off and neuter them, like the dog industry does haha. jk... I always find it strange that our society accepts that dogs get the tails cut off, balls chopped off, etc

[formica]

Originally Posted by nepoez

Maybe cut their tail off and neuter them, like the dog industry does haha. jk... I always find it strange that our society accepts that dogs get the tails cut off, balls chopped off, etc

docking is illegal here, and in most of Europe, unless there is a good medical reason to do it - castration is a different thing tho, uncastrated dogs can be significantly more aggressive when an owner is unable to maintain a proper dominant position, unfortunately most people are unable, or unaware of the correct way to take a dominant position with a dog, and worse still allot of them believe that being aggressive/hitting/shouting is the way to do it

[varanus_mad]

Hands on taming is a big no no for me... Evey varanid I've held that's been brought up that way it's heartbeat is going ten to the dozen.

Keep at it'll come round I suspect it's initial reaction was part of the settling process.

[formica]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Hands on taming is a big no no for me... Evey varanid I've held that's been brought up that way it's heartbeat is going ten to the dozen.

Keep at it'll come round I suspect it's initial reaction was part of the settling process.

the monitors you are referring to, where they your own? if so did you raise them from hatchlings, or did handling start at adulthood? if they where not your own, could the heartbeat also be a reaction to an unknown situation/handler?



i've no plan to switch tactics at this time, just trying to understand them better

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by formica

the monitors you are referring to, where they your own? if so did you raise them from hatchlings, or did handling start at adulthood? if they where not your own, could the heartbeat also be a reaction to an unknown situation/handler?



i've no plan to switch tactics at this time, just trying to understand them better

A few adults I purchased of other keepers and a few kept by other keepers, monitors I've raised from hatchling I've done hands off with.

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by formica

docking is illegal here, and in most of Europe, unless there is a good medical reason to do it - castration is a different thing tho, uncastrated dogs can be significantly more aggressive when an owner is unable to maintain a proper dominant position, unfortunately most people are unable, or unaware of the correct way to take a dominant position with a dog, and worse still allot of them believe that being aggressive/hitting/shouting is the way to do it

I think if the animal is meant to be aggressive without castration, then that's how it should be, and if it's too dangerous to keep then it shouldn't be kept as a pet Castrating it so it suits the owner is just messed up in my view, at least at this point in time that's how I feel.

[formica]

Originally Posted by nepoez

I think if the animal is meant to be aggressive without castration, then that's how it should be, and if it's too dangerous to keep then it shouldn't be kept as a pet Castrating it so it suits the owner is just messed up in my view, at least at this point in time that's how I feel.

all dogs are more aggressive when not castrated, thats just the nature of hormones, obviously its to a lessor or greater degree depending on the dog - all dogs are dangerous if not trained and looked after properly, they are after all, top level predators, there is no getting around that, except thru proper dominance techniques

if castration caused pain, or a reduction in the quality of life, then i'd agree, but reducing aggression and wounds/medical care as a result, unwanted pregnancies, puppies then getting dumped in rivers, dogs less likley to vanish into the night and cause mayhem in the communicty and further...etc are good reasons for it imo

[Toothless]

I agree. Castration is not in the same category as ear and tail cropping (same as de-clawing in cats). Docking and cropping is an unneccasairy procedure which does not benefit the animal at all in most cases. Castration on the other hand not only reduces the amount of unwanted puppies, it also makes the animal more comfortable as they are not constantly driven by their hormones and the need to mate.

[infernalis]

Oh, we mauled and handled Chomper all the time.

He was "calm" (lethargic) and paid for it with his life.

Hence why I went fill 180 this time. (opposite)

[formica]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Oh, we mauled and handled Chomper all the time.

He was "calm" (lethargic) and paid for it with his life.

Hence why I went fill 180 this time. (opposite)

did he show interest in you when you where not handling him? I mean, did he come to you when you where the near the enclosure, or did he actively avoid contact unless you forced it on him?

I'm wondering if it is possible to have the best of both worlds, proper temperatures, but more interaction - but not if it is going to instill a persistent fear that will reduce its quality of life

[BH Varanus]

Originally Posted by formica

So i've been following the hands-off method since getting my Sav, he'll happily perch on my arm and accept food, but still whips, and has even had a few goes at biting me recently, if I make the slightest movement, so I'm thinking about changing tactics - mainly because, if anything, he has become less trusting of me. for the first few weeks, I was able to pick him up when needed, without much fuss, the less i interacted with him, the less willing he seemed to be to put up with this, the last time i picked him up, having emlpoyed the hands off method for a while, I got a hand full of poop, its been a good few months since I tried anything beyond holding my arm out for him to climb and eat off

before people jump on me, I am fully aware of all the reasons behind the hands off method, its why I decieded to follow the method, we dont need to go over all that.

Changing tactic isnt something I am going to do today, tomorrow or even next month, its something I want to look into a little more - it seems that although not recommended by some, with reasonable assumptions to back it up, it certainly does give good results for some people - lets leave aside the issue of low basking tempretures, because for my Sav that will never been a concern.

The reason I am thinking about this, is because either it will work, and I'll end up with a Sav who will tolerate handling allot better, or it wont work, and we'll have the same relationship we have anyway, so I think its worth a shot, before he/she gets to big to even contemplate it.


So i'd love to hear peoples experiences using the hands-on method, as is used for other reptiles with great success - have you found it helped, or did it make your Sav less trusting? what was your method, how long did you try it for, and any other info you think might be of relevance, feel free to comment!




( Those with strong opinions on why this should not be done, please try to refrain from bashing people over their practices, both sides of the discussion are just as valid as the other, we should not try suppress the experiences of other people because they do not support our own opinions

I am inclined to believe that hands on can work for some Savs, just as it works for many snakes, and equally, for some snakes it will never work, polarizing the discussion wont really produce anything useful )

try manning techniques used for raptors it worked with my female ornate who was the equivalent of a four legged barracuda when i adopted her at 3 years old. I also use a cooling method , but don't advise it for novice owners (not implying you're a novice). The cooling method has to be spot on ( for obvious medical reasons and i only used it once a week on a red level psycho water monitor I had years ago. It worked pretty well and i followed it up with 'manning.' for the record i only handle my varanus after these steps were completed during enclosure maintenance, vet visits are when they bother me..lol
as far as duration of use of these these techniques they took eight weeks and only used them on adopted adults.

[V87]

Originally Posted by BH Varanus

try manning techniques used for raptors it worked with my female ornate who was the equivalent of a four legged barracuda when i adopted her at 3 years old. I also use a cooling method , but don't advise it for novice owners (not implying you're a novice). The cooling method has to be spot on ( for obvious medical reasons and i only used it once a week on a red level psycho water monitor I had years ago. It worked pretty well and i followed it up with 'manning.' for the record i only handle my varanus after these steps were completed during enclosure maintenance, vet visits are when they bother me..lol
as far as duration of use of these these techniques they took eight weeks and only used them on adopted adults.

Can u explain the cooling technique u speak of and what it consists of other than the obvious ?