The yellow rat snake that may enjoy some human contact.

Cory · 05-29-13, 05:22 PM

My girlfriend has a yellow rat snake. Quite by accident I have encountered some behaviours I am unfamiliar with and that research online and in published materials has not been particularly useful.

Lily (the snake) seems to enjoy when I gently touch the top of his back with small, circular motions. The two unusual behaviours are:

1. he will often arch his back up toward my finger. I can slowly pull it away about an inch (2.5 cm) and he will follow with his arched back. I have considered that this may be a negative reaction intended to push me away but his normal reaction to unwanted stimuli is to retreat into his 'burrow' made from PVC piping. If this is a negative response then it is an unusual one compared to all the other times he doesn't like something and wants to get away.

2. he sometimes begin moving in a very jerky fashion, with sudden and repeated twitchy, even convulsive motions. He maintains his interest in the touch and tends to not recoil when it investigates and realizes that the source is human. Once he even slid two thirds of his body off of his perch and onto my hand.

In both of the above situations, the snake is in his cage and is interested in the source of the stimulus. His normal reaction to human touch is to investigate and then recoil slightly, as though the realization of a human actor is unwanted or disgusting. Almost as though he had his hopes up for something more pleasing than anything a human can offer.

I realize that many sorts of snakes den communally, will follow each others scents, and are capable of positive interaction when it is their mating season. For example, snakes with elevated testosterone levels have been shown to defensively strike less often. My present hypothesis is that this may be evidence of some sort of contact that this and other snakes enjoy. I am not the only person to have taken this sort of possibility into account since similarly positive behaviours have been noted by others, though they have been noted very rarely.

I am both reporting this odd behaviour to the herp community and asking for its interpretations. Thank you ahead of time for any insights or suggestions you may provide.

Starbuck · 05-30-13, 03:58 AM

My honduran milk snake will arch her back when touched in her viv. I have never interpreted it as a positive reaction to stimuli, i think it is entirely defensive, similar to a cat flattening its ears, etc.

Cory · 05-30-13, 09:11 AM

Thank you Starbuck. It is quite possible that it is some sort of defensive reaction, or at least a negative social reaction.

Dog trainers frequently note that dogs communicate both positive and negative social messages through bodily gestures. Cats also use social body language to communicate both positive and negative emotional reactions. Snakes may well do the same.

At least some snakes use scent and/or pheromone trails to follow one another from work done in Narcisse, Manitoba, Canada. Pheromone trails are used to ensure that the thousands of garter snakes coming out of their shared, communal winter dens do not get run over by traffic by luring the snakes through underpasses instead.

Snakes may also use body language to communicate as well as olfactory methods. Snakes are capable of positive as well as negative social queues so it is reasonable to assume that snakes may push against an annoying source of physical stimulation, perhaps similar to the way that the males of some species "wrestle" with one another for dominance. The problem arises when negative social queues for physical reactions are the only interpretations available.

We know that snakes can engage in physical activities that they desire. Both feeding and mating are good examples of snakes expressing positive emotional states in physical ways. It makes sense then that snakes should exhibit both positive and negative responses.

As people who have taken animals into our homes it is our responsibility to ensure that they live lives as happy and comfortable as we can afford. This is the exact opposite of animal abuse; we endeavour to provide a positive life for our animals, as free as possible from stresses and deprivation. Due to this goal it follows that we become more successful caretakers if we can find out what the animal enjoys.

Starbuck, have you found any stimulus or circumstance that you think your animals like? The same question goes out to anyone else who reads this thread.

Hurrok · 05-30-13, 12:02 PM

Sometimes I will gently rub Lestat (my eldest male bp) on top of his head in circular motions and massage behind his neck and along his back and he will just sit there and fall asleep, sometimes flick his tongue towards me and then rest back down and enjoy the massage

If he didn't like it he would have moved his head or started to slither away.

possum · 05-30-13, 01:10 PM

I think that many snakes enjoy being touched in a non-threatening way by us, once they understand what it is anyway (ie. learn we are not predators). Some of mine seem to enjoy a little 'massage'. Some also get VERY relaxed when I sit with them in a hammock or rocking chair...to the point that some otherwise feisty & unapproachable ones become mellow. As Cory posted above, I believe we owe our pets the best conditions we can manage, and incidentally, the good vibes affect us positively as well...it's a 'win-win' IMO. (Cory, I also don't doubt that some snakes, when touched the right way, were hoping for a mate instead of us, LOL! And if you watch snakes mate this really makes sense, at least to me. I have 2.2 yellow ratsnakes, btw.)

That "convulsive twitching & jerky motions" is another matter: I have often observed this behavior when two snakes (same kind) are put together, and I believe it is a signal to the other that "hey, I'm not prey, I'm a snake like you!", and I occasionally get the same response from one of my snakes when they are touched by me. I also have tried to imitate the same movements back to them (when/if they start doing that) & they seem to calm down, satisfied that I'm not there to eat them? There is also the defensive shove that some snakes do, when they don't want to deal with you or be picked up (& don't wish to bite) but it's quite different from those jerky/twitchy motions, & hard to misinterpret.

I've met plenty of ppl who call me anthropomorphic and think snakes are mindless creatures...I think it's sad they've made their minds up & miss what's really there... You can communicate with your pets if you remember their best senses, scent & touch, & keep an open mind...try to imagine from their viewpoint.

Ever notice what happens if you flick your tongue back at your snake when they are close enough to see the motion? (I'm not above looking silly but don't do this in public, LOL!) They appear to keep responding... In the course of taking in w/c snakes, I've made a point of doing everything I could to reduce what surely is their terror of being in captivity & near us...and my anecdotal evidence that it helps is that they feed & do well with me.

smy_749 · 05-30-13, 01:43 PM

Lol wow, very scientific post possum!
You guys dont realize that these are snakes, not humans. You say you do, but by your posts you clearly don't. Snakes aren't domesticated like your dogs and cats. They don't have a human brain, which means they have stuff we don't, and lack stuff we have. If you haven't intensely studied the human brain, and the brains of other vertebrates including squamata, then don't comment based on your intellect, because your intellect and thinking from a snakes point of view garbage is exactly that in the world of science, garbage. show me hard scientific facts to back claims.

MDT · 05-30-13, 01:51 PM

Our snakes do not like us.....period.

possum · 05-30-13, 01:58 PM

Speaking of snakes enjoying human contact, here's a funny but true story: a 'celibate' male rosy boa I kept for many years liked to snuggle around my neck while I did dishes or other light activity...(I know "don't let snakes wrap around your neck for safety"...but male rosy boas, for those who don't know, don't exceed 30"...pretty much 'scarf size' and harmless) Anyway, one night I could feel his spurs scraping my neck & realized with some degree of surprise & amusement that he was "flirting" with me! (that's what they use their spurs for) My best guess is that he was feeling my pulse in my neck & perhaps was responding partly to that? (-thought I was nudging him?) I also had a female rosy boa and I have to wonder if he was picking up a few molecules of her scent and putting "2 + 2 together", very optimistically? LOL

possum · 05-30-13, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smy_749

Lol wow, very scientific post possum!....

I knew you'd be along to argue...LOL I do not discount science at all, but scientists also miss things. I can give you specifics, but you'll only argue? (my best friend IS a scientist...& over the years keeping many snakes himself, we are on the same page, fyi)

Starbuck · 05-30-13, 02:07 PM

honestly, I am hard pressed to think of a situation in which my snakes appear to enjoy my presence.
My female king becomes extremely alert when someone walks by, and even more so when her cage is opened, but her reaction to then bite ANYTHING that then enters the cage (hook or hand) reinforces that she is just conditioned to think it might be food. It is only after she has been hooked and removed from the cage that she stops having a feed response to every touch; but there is absolutely nothing to make me think she either likes or dislikes being out of her viv. She explores a bit, but she explores her viv as well.

My male king actively dislikes being removed from his viv, and will musk a good deal of the time. Once out and being handled, he calms down, but remains nervous and very keyed into his surroundings. With him, i am 100% certain he would rather never get handled and would be perfectly happy to eat, poop, and sleep his days away untouched. Just because he doesnt react negatively (by bring, hissing, etc) doesnt mean i think he reacts positively.

I prefer to think of most of my snakes reactions as blind curiosity. They will always investigate any environment they are put into, and i think they can interpret is as bad or not bad (good temp/bad temp, humid/not humid, etc) but i do not think they enjoy it or seek it out. I do think they can be conditioned to responses; this is why my female king gets excited when i open her cage (food), or why they calm down when removed form the viv by the hook, or why the ones getting injections (antibiotics) tense up when placed on the counter for their shot.
It isnt such a large jump to say they can be conditioned to respond to a touch; (think female snakes becoming more receptive when the male rests his head on her back), but i believe it IS a large jump to confer an emotion connected to this response.

possum · 05-30-13, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

Our snakes do not like us.....period.

translation: your snakes don't like you

MDT · 05-30-13, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by possum

translation: your snakes don't like you

Yeah...I'm pretty positive yours don't like you as well...

possum · 05-30-13, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smy_749

..... show me hard scientific facts to back claims.

Don't need to...this is a forum, remember? And last I checked, you don't own it? Why are you SO afraid of new ideas & other's opinions and experience? You "circle the wagons" every time with childish personal attacks like this is WWIII.

I will add though, that it's much easier to treat animals (any kind) like an unthinking commodity and keep them in minimal conditions (think puppy mill?) for their lifespan and for your amusement and maybe profit if you can remain convinced (and perhaps convince others?) that it has has no real brain or "feelings"...so the more you rant at me, the more I wonder how humanely you keep things.

smy_749 · 05-30-13, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by possum

Don't need to...this is a forum, remember? And last I checked, you don't own it? Why are you SO afraid of new ideas & other's opinions and experience? You "circle the wagons" every time with childish personal attacks like this is WWIII.

I will add though, that it's much easier to treat animals (any kind) like an unthinking commodity and keep them in minimal conditions (think puppy mill?) for their lifespan and for your amusement and maybe profit if you can remain convinced (and perhaps convince others?) that it has has no real brain or "feelings"...so the more you rant at me, the more I wonder how humanely you keep things.

I'm afraid of stupidity. It's contagious and I don't want newcomers to catch it from you. Your right, it is easier to treat them like unthinking commodities and in minimal conditions, so which member does that? You think the only reason people like me, aaron, whoever else thinks they don't like us, keeps them for profit? What do you keep your animals for? Because they love you and you don't want to break their hearts? Or to observe them for your own amusement? Or do you breed them to repopulate the population and save planet earth? I didn't say it has no real brain or feelings, I said it doesn't have what you think it has, because you seem to have never opened a book and read anything on the matter.

I'm afraid of people who say the snake enjoy's his contact (around his neck) and uses it as a proof that they enjoy his company, and at the end discredits himself saying he probably smelled a female and was just confused.

Oh, your friend is a scientist so YOU must understand the physiology of all things reptile? And again with the " kept snakes for many years " thing.....

Enlighten me with your specifics please, not from your own mouth, but scientific facts. We are all aware that scientists get things wrong, but its not any reason to lose your marbles and think of any theory that comes to mind without understanding anything and having no foundation in the knowledge required to come up with those theories .

possum · 05-30-13, 03:33 PM

smy_749: Well speaking of stupid...stop putting words in my mouth. The rosy boa was comfortable around my neck...I do not think he was actually attracted to me (duh?) therefore as I said, I assumed that maybe he caught some scent from the female rosy? who knows...this thread is about observations of snakes with humans...clearly you have nothing to add but hostility. How pathetic.