Feed Guide for Newbies (Rats v Mice)

[KORBIN5895]

That's too much reading for me.

[Hurrok]

Nicely written and some valid points too.

All our snakes are under 3 years of age and the oldest are around 1,200 each just from eating rats for the entire time of having them. And when I do up their feeding size they definitely show a big spurt of growth. They grow up so fast :')

[Lickeypie]

As for raising mice vs. rats, is there much of a difference? (ex: in smell?)

[franks]

Thx for posting chris. I would like to see the nutritional values compared when rats outgrow their mice equivalents. For example, what are the nutritional differences between, one medium rat and two large mice or one large rat and two or three xl mice?

[shaunyboy]

heres a nutrition chart that covers most types of prey.....


Rodent Pro's Nutrient Composition

cheers shaun

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Reptile_Reptile

nobody was whining i simply didnt have the knowledge to help them. can you please link me to sites that support your claim of incomplete data? or maybe refer me to a book? how about make a similar post but from your theory's perspective? i would love to read.

Here is a link to support what I said about incomplete data.

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

heres a nutrition chart that covers most types of prey.....


Rodent Pro's Nutrient Composition

cheers shaun

Would you look at that! It is the same data he used!

Originally Posted by Chris72

Sure:

The nutrient breakdown is from RodentPro.

The bit about nutrient function is personal knowledge. (I am an elite amature endurance athlete) knowledge gained from school, decades of working with coaches and lots of friends who race at a higher level than I.

The size chart is from another feed supplier site on the web.

What size to feed: common knowledge. Corroborated by senior member on the board of course.

PM me if you want a refferance for something specific. (It took time)

Now Jr if you take the time to look at the data provided you sill see that they are calling an adult rat 50g plus. How can a 50g rat be the same nutritionally as a 150g rat? Or a 300g rat? Or even a 500g rat? Sorry but it just doesn't work.

Since the data stops at 50g rats there is no way to compare the nutritional value of three 40g mice to a 150g rat as there is no info on a 150g rat. Hence incomplete data.

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by franks

Thx for posting chris. I would like to see the nutritional values compared when rats outgrow their mice equivalents. For example, what are the nutritional differences between, one medium rat and two large mice or one large rat and two or three xl mice?

Good question. The link Shaun supplied shows the details.

From the perspective of micro nutrients there is more of a balance. From the perspective of macro nutrients there is actually a greater differance.

More specifically a drop in ash and statistically significant increase in fat and protien percentages.

Gram for gram you are going to get even more with an adult rat v a sub adult rat. Where we know that fat and protien has 9cal/g and 4cal/g respectively we are now providing an appreciable increase in calories per gram (adult rat) v the same number of grams in mouse feed.

Protien goes to 61.8% (v mouse @55.8)
Fat go to 32.6%. (v mouse @ 23.6)

Both an increase over the Jeuvenille rat used in the original comparison.

The higher protien will help to further support increased growth, tissue repair and basis physical maintenance. The higher fat content provides a very calorically dense fuel source per gram.

This is likely why we see long established breeders (see:Mykee) pick rats as the snake snack of choice. (Especially with females around breeding time)

[Terranaut]

Rabbits are even better

Nice little write up. Cost of prey is a big consideration.
I never feed mice. When the snake gets big it would cost a fortune if they were stuck on mice.

Ooops I just saw this was in the ball python section. Sorry. I guess rabbit is not a likely choice.

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Rabbits are even better

Nice little write up. Cost of prey is a big consideration.
I never feed mice. When the snake gets big it would cost a fortune if they were stuck on mice.

Ooops I just saw this was in the ball python section. Sorry. I guess rabbit is not a likely choice.

I noticed rabbit is better choice nutritionally. According to the chart a 1 lb rabbit is = to an XL-Rat. (Big females can get up to 5000g so N.P.) not sure if anyone is doing that. Couldn't hurt I suppose. My lemon blast, Olympia, hits food items like the rat stole her car. (Pissed) when she grows up I'm sure if I let a small rabbit sleep on bedding that smelled like rats... It would be a short story.

No reason to I guess.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Chris72

I noticed rabbit is better choice nutritionally. According to the chart a 1 lb rabbit is = to an XL-Rat. (Big females can get up to 5000g so N.P.) not sure if anyone is doing that. Couldn't hurt I suppose. My lemon blast, Olympia, hits food items like the rat stole her car. (Pissed) when she grows up I'm sure if I let a small rabbit sleep on bedding that smelled like rats... It would be a short story.

No reason to I guess.

A female what weighs up to 5,000g?

[Starbuck]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

A female what weighs up to 5,000g?

maybe they meant 500g, which would be just over 1 pound; which ties in a little better to the rabbit/rat comparison? I was puzzled about this too lol

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Chris72

I noticed rabbit is better choice nutritionally. According to the chart a 1 lb rabbit is = to an XL-Rat. (Big females can get up to 5000g so N.P.) not sure if anyone is doing that. Couldn't hurt I suppose. My lemon blast, Olympia, hits food items like the rat stole her car. (Pissed) when she grows up I'm sure if I let a small rabbit sleep on bedding that smelled like rats... It would be a short story.

No reason to I guess.

Again, what makes you say that?

[Terranaut]

Rabbit has great protien with low fat. If you look it up like I did you realize how much better it is compared to beef,pork,chicken or turkey for humans too. This is why we eat it weekly now. It's an awesome meat period.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Rabbit has great protien with low fat. If you look it up like I did you realize how much better it is compared to beef,pork,chicken or turkey for humans too. This is why we eat it weekly now. It's an awesome meat period.

This was the reason for my including you in the response man, nothing more. I have no desire to argue about which is better, as I have stated very clearly that I think all these food items are perfectly acceptable.



Chris, so apparently I'm confused. You dont want any disagreement, but you want to say that one is better. You clearly called the thread Rats VS Mice, as in you want to compare them. You clearly said there were two goals in this thread, to compare the merits of rats vs mice, and to show the appropriate sized prey to feed. Then you plainly go on to state that you feel rats are better. Had you simply made the thread about the amount being fed, I wouldn't have probably said anything. Thats not what you did though, you clearly say rats are better and more natural, and neither of those is necessarily the case.

We share a similar desire though, that being that newbies are not confused and get taught something incorrectly, thus affecting the way they care for their snakes. (I suppose the difference between us though is that it seems youre still one of those newbies.) Some people have a hard time getting rats, others have a hard time switching over their snakes to rats. Ive talked with people who have starved their snakes for the sake of forcing it to take rats because they were told that was all they should be feeding. So you see, there is reason to make clear that any of these feeder prey are fine, and useful to show newbies that the choice is one of convenience for the owner and nothing more.

If you would like, we can start a new thread where we discuss the merits of each, but as you chose to take sides in this thread, it only seems logical to have it be here that I discuss why thats not necessarily the case. Again, since you clearly have taken sides, why would you be adverse to defending that position in the same thread? Im not being unreasonable or aggressive that Im aware of, merely questioning your assertions and assumptions. It seems like if your statements cant stand up to reasonable disagreement, then perhaps a little more research was in order first.

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by jarich

This was the reason for my including you in the response man, nothing more. I have no desire to argue about which is better, as I have stated very clearly that I think all these food items are perfectly acceptable.



Chris, so apparently I'm confused. You dont want any disagreement, but
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perhaps a little more research was in order first.

Not my opinions at all. Simply presenting the data as it stands. Mice are not a bad feed by any stretch of the imagination however, as the data shows, rats are a better nutritional selection.

I had gathered allot of information over a period of time and the O.P. is simply what I found. (Yes it stands up...not hard for data to stand on its own...and I don’t think I offered any speculation.)

To that point I would like to see a newbie (lurker or not) feeding the proper size rat to the Ball...not whatever the kid at Pet Smart said.

Please consider looking for nutritional data on why mice are the superior food choice and open a thread on that subject for all to comment on. I will be happy to take part as long as it doesn’t turn into a fight.

As previously stated, I’m not interested in a brawl. (That 4 times now)

I found your last post insulting. I opened with a little respect to mice feeders, and more than a few times I have specified there is nothing wrong with that. As the data shows, rats are better if both options are available and feasible. That said; To date I have not seen any "reasonable disagreements" with data to back up the thinking.

I have kept various reptiles and breed exotic bird for decades. I am not a "newbie" but thank you for offing that.

Please feed you snakes mice...I am finished with this conversation. (Egarly waiting to read the thread on Mice)

Highest Regards,
C.