A question of Ethics

blindfireak40 · 09-17-11, 01:01 PM

Here's a completely hypothetical thought, and I was just wondering where you guys stood on it:

It's fairly widely accepted that Rats are superior food items for rodent-eating snakes. It's also a commonly noted phenomenon that some snakes tend to want to stick to mice once they've been started on them. A lot of snakes (especially colubrids) start on mice, because rat pinks are too large.

The question is this: If there was a non-invasive way (think chemical or herbal means) to induce labor in rats, would it be ethical to induce it at early enough a stage that the rat pinks could be consumed by baby colubrids? Would there still even be health benefits with slightly underdeveloped prey items? Discuss.

SpOoKy · 09-17-11, 01:16 PM

I am not an expert on development but I would assume the reason the fetus' spend so much time in the womb is because they need that time to develop completely. I think that taking them out early would hinder the nutritional benefits. just a thought though, I am not completely sure.

knox · 09-17-11, 01:26 PM

Since mice meet all the nutritional needs of Colubrids, even as a hypothetical scenario I don't see the advantage of pre-mature Rat pinks.

TeaNinja · 09-17-11, 01:29 PM

if there was a way, it would probably cause complications in mothers and/or babies. i find it much more logical to just start it on mice and switch it over when the time comes. it might be alittle tricky to get them to switch, but nothing like trying to alter the birth cycle of an animal lol.

blindfireak40 · 09-17-11, 01:40 PM

All fair points! My mind tends to go in odd directions when I'm bored/caffeinated, and I just sorta had this thought...seemed like it might be a good discussion piece

For my part, I agree with the statements posted above, but as a question of ethics I'm not sure. As feeder animals, their quality of life is not going to be that great no matter how you slice it...I agree that if complications were to arise in the mothers, it would be a poor decision, but the babies would be immediately frozen or consumed in this hypothetical world. I personally don't think there'd be an ETHICAL difference between this and full-term frozen rat pinks.

Again, this isn't just a practical discussion; I agree there's not really an argument to be had practically, as Mice satisfy the nutritional needs for all the snakes that this would apply to.

knox · 09-17-11, 01:55 PM

Don't get me wrong - I love discussions like this - ethics and "what ifs". I appreciate you throwing it out.

Nice to make the brain work a little every once in a while.

TeaNinja · 09-17-11, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindfireak40

All fair points! My mind tends to go in odd directions when I'm bored/caffeinated, and I just sorta had this thought...seemed like it might be a good discussion piece

For my part, I agree with the statements posted above, but as a question of ethics I'm not sure. As feeder animals, their quality of life is not going to be that great no matter how you slice it...I agree that if complications were to arise in the mothers, it would be a poor decision, but the babies would be immediately frozen or consumed in this hypothetical world. I personally don't think there'd be an ETHICAL difference between this and full-term frozen rat pinks.

Again, this isn't just a practical discussion; I agree there's not really an argument to be had practically, as Mice satisfy the nutritional needs for all the snakes that this would apply to.

that's not necesarily true. i've bred and fed many feeders and they all have excellent lives. that's one of the reasons i find it so hard to euthanize happy, healthy, docile rats. i wish all of our food animals were raised in such good conditions, our meat would taste much better then pen crammed, hormone filled animals.

**millertime89** · 09-17-11, 04:47 PM

free range steak/beef ftw

blindfireak40 · 09-17-11, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeaNinja

that's not necesarily true. i've bred and fed many feeders and they all have excellent lives. that's one of the reasons i find it so hard to euthanize happy, healthy, docile rats. i wish all of our food animals were raised in such good conditions, our meat would taste much better then pen crammed, hormone filled animals.

Ah. I should have elaborated. What I meant to convey was this: Either way, for pinks or fuzzies, they're heading straight from the womb into euthanization, for the most part. In comparison to this, I don't know that there's a whole lot of difference between being instantly euthanized full-term or prematurely.

In terms of adult feeders, I agree. They can (And frequently are--see Layne Labs) very well cared for, and DO live full lives. When I made my statement regarding poor lives, I was primarily referring to the ones culled for feeder pinks.

I completely agree with the whole free-range beef sentiment, too...it just tastes that much better, doesn't it??

unknownclown · 09-17-11, 11:04 PM

Everyones ethics are different my personal ethics wouldnt allow it due to the fact that you would be putting the mother and babies at risk. Id be worried the mother could hemmorage, the babies would be unhealthy and the mom may put them out of thier misery before they are found. Not to mention the drugs involved to induce would be transferred to the snakes or whatever your feeding.

**millertime89** · 09-18-11, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindfireak40

I completely agree with the whole free-range beef sentiment, too...it just tastes that much better, doesn't it??

My parents purchase half a free range cow after its slaughtered every spring for hamburger, steaks, roast, etc. It goes so quickly they need to start buying a whole one. Yum.

TeaNinja · 09-18-11, 03:09 AM

delicious.

Snakefood · 09-18-11, 09:44 AM

I can't say I would do something like that on purpose, I think I would rather cut a pink in half than figure out how to make the mamma deliver early.

On another note, when I brought Ananta home, the previous owner gave me a bag of "jumbo mice" that were obviously too big for her, so when I got my amel male from the show, I pulled them out as he is quite a bit bigger than Ananta. Low and behold, these mice weren't jumbo, they were pregnant. And there were 4 fetal pinkies in the bag too! (not fully developed) My assumtion would be one of the females spontaneously aborted during euthanization.

TeaNinja · 09-18-11, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakefood

I can't say I would do something like that on purpose, I think I would rather cut a pink in half than figure out how to make the mamma deliver early.

On another note, when I brought Ananta home, the previous owner gave me a bag of "jumbo mice" that were obviously too big for her, so when I got my amel male from the show, I pulled them out as he is quite a bit bigger than Ananta. Low and behold, these mice weren't jumbo, they were pregnant. And there were 4 fetal pinkies in the bag too! (not fully developed) My assumtion would be one of the females spontaneously aborted during euthanization.

good point, you could always cut a f/t in half. also that's kinda sad about the pregnant mom mice =/

Snakefood · 09-18-11, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeaNinja

good point, you could always cut a f/t in half. also that's kinda sad about the pregnant mom mice =/

Ya, it was sad. But I guess the silver lining is I have 4 super small mouse pinks. Khuno regurged last night, so I may use one of the tiny ones for next feeding, just to take it easy on his digestive tract.