When does it become hoarding?

[NennaMeerkat]

It seems with reptiles and other "tank" type animals like reptiles there doesn't seem to be a big of a thing if someone owns a lot of them. If someone had 30+ cat or dog...or even rabbits, chickens ect. they might be called a hoarder. But it seems with reptiles someone might own that many without being called one.

This is spurred from a commercial I saw where they are talking about animal hoarding and someone is calling a guy who owns 27 venomous snakes a hoarder...but to me I don't really see that as hoarding.

So what do you think the line is between collector or breeder and the dreaded hoarder?

[Nismo89]

I think it wouldn't be considered hoarding if he still had room to move around and had proper husbandry. Most cat/dog hoarders can't feed the animals and in most cat hoarding situation the litter box is completely disgusting. So IMO if he's caring for them properly and they aren't over running his living space leave him be its a hobby maybe he doesn't have much human company and likes to have animals around.

[SnakeyJay]

Each to their own i say... as long as the animals are well cared for there shouldnt be an issue.

[Snakefood]

I feel the same. If a person is capable of housing and caring for the # of animals he/she has then it's not hoarding. Every person's limit would be different. I am a homebody, so it is easy for me to have multiple animals. My mom travels, so 1-2 small dogs is all she can do.

I think it becomes hoarding when both sanitation and space are big issues. Keeping 27 snakes can be done in one room easily, I have seen it. 27 dogs....... well that opens a whole new can of worms.

I also believe that the animal in question's nature needs to be taken into account. Snakes (from what I've learned here) don't really need nor want a whole lot of attention, whereas a dog would suffer horribly from lack of attention and show it in behavioral issues. So a single person could easily give the amount of attention 27 snakes would need. Not so with dogs.

[candyraver69]

I have to agree with Nismo. The line is drawn when the animals are not cared for properly or cause the person to not care for themselves properly.

A person can have 15 or 20 cats if they are retired with a decent amount of money and healthy enough to spend their day looking after them all. A person who can barely feed them self because they are in need of assisted living or counseling/medication and don't have it, shouldn't have one cat, let alone 20.

I guess another thing that draws the line of hoarding... lack of self control. I know when to say no, and when to say not yet. Some people lack that ability.

There are some borderline instances. What is proper husbandry to one person, may be acceptable to another. Some breeders, for instance, use racks that give a snake just enough room for a small water dish and to curl up, and that's it. I wouldn't call that proper husbandry. Some people insist the snake be in something that it can stretch out to it's full length + 1/2 that. I feel that isn't entirely necessary so long as the snake gets plenty of time outside of the viv. What type of heat is better, under, radiant, side, a combo? Do snakes in racks need hides considering it's pretty dark and quiet? I guess there will always be debate here in these types of grey areas.

[whoaxmary]

"More than the typical number of companion animals
Inability to provide even minimal standards of nutrition, sanitation, shelter and veterinary care, with this neglect often resulting in starvation, illness and death
Denial of the inability to provide this minimum care and the impact of that failure on the animals, the household and human occupants of the dwelling "

[brylecc1989]

^^^This! I think it's all about being able to maintain proper care/husbandry.

[totheend]

Of course it is hoarding!

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

Originally Posted by NennaMeerkat

This is spurred from a commercial I saw where they are talking about animal hoarding and someone is calling a guy who owns 27 venomous snakes a hoarder...but to me I don't really see that as hoarding.

A single person with 27 various venomous snakes under his care without a professional purpose is rather ridiculous. IMO. To provide the sanitation and husbandry requirements correctly while all the while providing a safe environment with proper protocol for that many venomous species of snakes single handily is quite the full time job.. Better left to a serpentarium in a zoo. Personal collections of venomous snakes should be limited in order to provide adequate care and safety...Which comes first.

And for him to be on a "animal planet" series called "animal hoarders" he has to creating a unsafe, unprofessional, dangerous situation to be even put in this situation to be on t.v.

[ladyjustice33]

Did they elaborate on what condition the 27 snakes were in and/or the house itself? Were the conditions unsanitary? I ask because, working in the justice system, we usually see cases of hoarding because someone complianed about unsanitary conditions, usually the smell coming from the dwelling, person, or the horrible condition the animals themselves are in when people see the dogs or cats outside. If you have a person in a nice home with 30 animals kept in very clean and sanitary conditions by people that can afford to provide for them properly, we usually don't even know about it cause no one tends to have a complaint to file.

[NennaMeerkat]

It was just a commercial. It showed people with like 250 rabbits and such. Seemed odd that they would consider owning 27 snakes hoarding. From what I saw I *think* he might be keeping them in bit plastic individual bins that aren't opaque or clear...but in that same shot was a large sized aquarium as well. So I don't know.

You can bet I will be watching the episodes of this new season to see what he is doing. I just wonder because of the snakes being venomous. Are they calling it hoarding simply because the snakes are deadly and if they would have the same attitude if it were corn snakes.

[Will0W783]

I think that the line is drawn when the animals are not being properly cared for, as others have said. When the person no longer has the time or money to treat the animals well or feed them properly, it is no longer a "hobby." Hobbies are relaxing and fun, and decrease the stress in our lives.

I also think that hoarding is an action of intent, or lack of proper intentions. When someone has a large collection of snakes because they truly love those species, and they find each and every specimen fascinating in its own right, they are probably not hoarding. However, some people buy things (animals included) just for the sake of buying them and the "rush" of new possessions. These people might be considered hoarders even if they manage to keep the animals healthy.

I personally don't think 27 snakes is hoarding. I've had more than that in the past, and all were well-cared for and loved. When my job schedule became more intense and I found that the standard of care I demand was becoming harder and harder for me to maintain, I rehomed some animals to bring the numbers down. I also know small-time breeders who breed snakes as a side job, yet own more than 100 breeding animals. I would hardly call them hoarders- they have separate rooms, proper setups and know their stuff. Just owning 27 snakes in and of itself isn't really "hoarding."

[Will0W783]

I think I too will be looking to find that episode. I'd like to see what kind of conditions he keeps them in and what his safety procedures are.

[marvelfreak]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

When my job schedule became more intense and I found that the standard of care I demand was becoming harder and harder for me to maintain, I rehomed some animals to bring the numbers down. I also know small-time breeders who breed snakes as a side job, yet own more than 100 breeding animals.

This is one of the things that separates hoarders from collectors. A hoarder would never down size. If it became to much to handle they would keep the poor animal and let them suffer.

My wife always tell me anything in double digits is hoarding. Unless it's to for breeding purposes to make money.

[stephanbakir]

In my mind, the term hints neglect. If the animal isn't neglected its fine.