What happens if you cross a carpet to a woma? (dialup)

[RB420]

ravensgait, i understand the point you are making. However, i don't think using corn, rice, beets, and so on as an example is really relevent since most of gregs points where making the point that it could be harmful to the animal in question (at least from my understanding greg)

such as

Low % make it through the first year......

Muscle and bone structure deformities.......

Internal organ deformities and failure........

Misplacement of internal organs and other soft tissues.....

Brain damage and other neurological problems......

im not sure if al these symptoms are as common as some make them out to be, but the fact that they happen is enough for me to beleive that it is unethical for the average snake breeder to attempt hybridization.

However, since you did bring those examples up, they are all ones that have had very great benefits to us as im sure you will agree. What benefit, other than to cure our boredom of the snakes currently available does hybrization of snakes bring? I don't see a single benefit to either the animals in question or ourselves. It is my opinion that if you are soo bored with the current selection of species than you are in this hobbie for the wrong reason. that is just my opinion tho. what benfit does a bateater have over either a burm or a retic. i have tried to search for some and came up empty. same with the carpet and the woma. Of course it would take many generations to stabelize them as a new species and find out the actual benefits. and it is for that reason i am not 100% agianst...only 98%...

i have learned a lot from this thread, from both the people pro and agaisnt hybrids.

[ravensgait]

Montie, What is the reason most people keep the animals they do?

As for deformities the information I found doesn't show a much higher percentage of defects in the reptiles the studies or experiments were conducted on than in pure bred clutches. Though the studies I did see were on closely related animals such as the Woma/Carpet cross. There don't seem to be a whole lot of studies done on reptile hybrids.

It's not like someone here is saying we should cross a Boa to a Python. It's like this all Pythons on a genetic level are pretty much the same. Now as far as making hybrids just for the sake of making them well that is something else. Though you have to admit that there is something to be learned from it.

If you think about it many hybrids we see every day are done for convenience look at your lawn the grass is most likely some kind of hybrid, do you really need that? Corn hybrids to make them taste better, the corn tasted pretty good but such and such hybrid taste better. The GTPs look great and the carpet are pretty but together they look wild! So really what is the difference between a sheep that grows more wool and a prettier snake neither is necessary.

Montie I can respect your view point that well you really don't want one but I do have trouble with people like Greg who dislike the idea for no real reason and spout their view all over the place. When you look at many of the successful hybrids out there the Woma/Carpet seems pretty tame in comparison.
Randy

[Dirty]

Hey Gregg,
I posted this question to you on the bateater thread but i guess u havent seen it so....
Is a Gaboon/Rhino crossed with a puff adder an integrade?

[munchy]

Originally posted by greenman1867
B.C. Bud

you know how we get down.

[Gregg M]

Dirty, a gaboon X rhino is a natural intergrade..... It happens with so much regularity, that these intergrades might be up for species classification..... Like I said, they are not all bad..... Just the ones made by greedy breeders are bad...... If it happens in the wild, I am cool with it......

Ravensgait, Are you smokin something or do you not know how to read????

I have listed some very real problems with hybrids and so has Seamus and Montie too..... These are the reasons why I do not think hybrids are a good idea...... Those are very good reasons..... You have yet to give a reason as to why they are Ok.....

Also another couple of statements made by you that shows you know absolutly nothing..... Are you ready for these????

#1 Though the studies I did see were on closely related animals such as the Woma/Carpet cross.

They are not closely related......

#2 It's like this all Pythons on a genetic level are pretty much the same.

Wrong again......

#3 So really what is the difference between a sheep that grows more wool and a prettier snake neither is necessary.

A sheep that grows more wool would supply more wool to cloth people..... Hybrid are not prettier snakes..... Nothing is better than a very nice example of a pure species..... Also trying to get "prettier" snakes comes with many risks to the animal and the captive populations.....

#4 As for deformities the information I found doesn't show a much higher percentage of defects in the reptiles the studies or experiments were conducted on than in pure bred clutches.

Where are these socalled "studies"???? LOL

You are the one who is funny or better yet, a joke..... Nothing to back your claims..... I gave you referances and good reasons not to be part of the "hybrid craze"...... You have shown nothing but ignorance......

[Dirty]

I got that part man I was asking about a Gaboon/Rhino crossed with a Puff Adder because I noticed you said you were going to try to produce them. Gaboon/Rhino/Puff...integrade? Any of these been wild caught? Not tryin to bust your balls dude...

[RB420]

in all fairness greg, beauty is in the eye of the beholder (in reference to # 3 in your previous post) But i do agree, that the pure breds are a lot nicer looking in most cases.

But to restate my point Prettier snakes is not really a benficial out come to breeding these hybrids....unless of course you are just trying to make a quick buck and i don't think that is justification for hybrization....sure its a good enough reason for grass randy, who doesn't like a nice lawn but not when you are possibly harming animals. just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Gregg M]

Dirty, I had spoken about the possibility but I never went ahead with the project because of the reasons I stated above..... That would have been crossing the line for sure.....

Montie, you are right, that steatement was opinion only......

[ravensgait]

Greg your statements are just that your opinion only! based on your prejudice not science, nor any experience you have ! not even based on intelligent supposition, would need the first to form the later.

Woma's and Carpets are no more unrelated than say Wolves and Boxers. Man Greg instead of sitting there trying to figure out the spell check do some on line searches. Hey I've already told you how to find the info and guess what you haven't looked! and it's not hard to figure out why you haven't looked.

Now come on Greg we're all still waiting for you to show us that intellect you keep laying claim to.

Montie do you own any Morphs? you didn't answer my question why do you have the animals you have? Could it be because you like the way they look? If you want to really think about it there is no reason for any of us to own the reptiles we do. We have them because we WANT TO simple as that. Have you or Greg ever sold a snake for profit? if so then what would be so different for someone to create a Hybrid, sell it to someone who wants it for what it looks like and whoa make a little money in the process.

Hey I've been involved in breeding animals most my life, Cattle,Horses, Dogs, Birds, Reptiles. man you can see some pretty horrible things in breeding any species of animal puppies born with their insides on the outside and still alive. calves with no legs or parts missing ETC ETC . Montie instead of listening to Greg why don't you do a little research and see just how little the guy knows about this subject the research is out there and pretty easy to find.

The difference between hybrid grass in our yards and hybrid or pure bred snakes in our collections? Well there is no real difference other than we want to have them simple as that.

Greg as for what I'm smoking well a Marlboro at the moment.
Randy

[Gregg M]

Ok Ravensgait, you keep trying to bash my spelling and it is actually quite childish of you...... All you are giving is hybrid breeder info.... No name people who breed...... They do not do scientific studies..... How can you compare hybrd grass to complex reptiles??? LOL...... Also, hybrid wolves have already been proven to have psycological problems.... Ofcorse a breeder will tell you differently.....

Do I sell snakes for profit???? Nope..... I am lucky I break even after buying all the supplies and food needed to keep my animals thriving.....

Got to the venomous forum here and ask anyone about me and what I have done for the venomous snake hobby.....

The majority of my statements are based on real studies...... These studies were not carried out by people for or against hybrids.... They were scientist, not greedy breeders.....

It is quite clear you have VERY limmited experiance with reptiles..... Here is more proof of that......

"Woma's and Carpets are no more unrelated than say Wolves and Boxers."

LOL..... That is just rediculous..... Did you know that Carpets have heat pit organs and Womas do not???? Their genetic make up is VERY different..... They took two totaly separate evolutionary paths a very long time ago.....

Why is it that some people need to take something as perfect as nature and try to make it "better"??? Here is an old saying.....
"If it aint broke, dont fix it....."

Ravengait, I am sure you know alittle about reptiles, but have shown your worthlessness on this subject.....

Something else you have done to prove you are alittle off is, you are trying to sway people to "your side".......

"Montie instead of listening to Greg why don't you do a little research and see just how little the guy knows about this subject the research is out there and pretty easy to find."

First my name is spelled Gregg not Greg..... Second, I am sure Montie has gathered enough info on the subject to make an educated choice...... Obviously distorted patterns and higher chances of deformed snakes does not do it for him.....

I have schooling and experiance with thousands of animals passing through my hands that strengthen my argument.....

You have pro hybrid veiws and lack of experiance for your side.....LOL

[ravensgait]

WOW Gregg(Likes g's so much he used them three times, just figured you were adding one for your user name) I guess by your reasoning Emeralds and Amazons are closer related to Carpets than Woma's !! They have heat pits!

Since you brought up you inability to use a Spell check again, it does say something about you.

Gregg why don't you just say it in plain English, You just don't like Hybrids!

Thousands of animals that pass through your hands and you made enough to support you other animals. Um Gregg if you made enough to buy a single animal to add to your collection and to keep it then you made a profit.

You keep going on and on about this education of yours well come on and show us some education then! I for one have been waiting days now to see it.

You don't want to mess with nature!!! Have you ever bred an animal? If so you messed with nature as I'm sure those two animals were unlikely to meet in the wild if they survived in the wild at all. If you don't want to mess with nature better get rid of all your animals because you sure are messing with NATURE NOW! here's a word for you , Hypocrite look up the meaning . Come on Gregg still waiting on that intellect.
Randy

[ackattack]

If this is not the kettle calling the pot black
I keep Gaboons, Rhinos, Puff Adders and Gaboon/Rhino crosses....
I will never BUY venomoids!!!!!!!
is the gaboon and a rhino not a hybreed snake ???

[ravensgait]

PS Gregg where do you get your info on Wolves from? LOL man you are so full of it, psychological problems!! LOL wolf Shrink mumbo jumbo man you just pull this stuff out of your??? don't you LMAO. Do you bother to research anything you talk about? I have to really wonder.
Randy

[Gregg M]

AckAttack, I explained already that gaboon X rhinos are a natural INTERGRADE!!!! There is a huge difference in somthing that happens in the wild naturally and something that greedy breeders throw together to make "see what comes out" and to make money..... Also, intergrade differ greatly from hybrids..... Just do a dictionary check and you will see how......

Ravensgait,
When did I say this????
"I guess by your reasoning Emeralds and Amazons are closer related to Carpets than Woma's !! They have heat pits!"

How did you get this from my reasoning???

My animals are bought using money I make at my daily job, not from money I recieve from selling offspring from my breeding projects.... This is my hobby, not my job.... I can see why you know as little as you do, because you make alot of assumptions......

My spelling tells you nothing about me or what I know..... I cant be bothered using a spell check...... It is not that important.....

I have said in plain English that I do not like hybrids and I also gave valid reasons why I do not like them...... There is nothing valid about any of your posts..... All you can say is that it is ok because you get "prettier" snakes....... Where is the benifit to hybrids???? Hybrid vigor???? LOL...... Not in reptiles and it is very rare that even natural hybrids are better suited than the pure blood species...... You and your views are a joke...... No substance at all...... You have also not provided any info worth anything..... All you can do is try to make me look less smart by repeating the same statements and cutting down my spelling.....

I gave referances and real issues that involve hybrids.....

So, how do I show you my education anyway??? You are trying to call me out on something that can not be looked at on paper...... Do you want me to post my degree on the forum???? LOL It is not going to happen.....

You have even gone so low as to make fun of the lettering in my name..... PATHETIC!!!!

[ravensgait]

Pathetic , yep that pretty much covers your reasoning.
Can't be bothered with a spell check huh well like I said it tells a lot about you. And it ain't good!

Now come on address my comments about just how your messing with nature and the meaning of the H word. Yep you don't sell snakes or receive compensation for them at all LOLOL.

Gregg come on man put some thought into it. Nothing valid in my post? and here I posted information I easily found on the web. Info you can't be bothered to search for. Maybe instead of making so many post here why don't you do some real research heck I told you how. Then you can come back here and spout some more lol . Well at least maybe then you'd have something NEW to say.

References and real issues lol like your post about the nut case wolves lol Yep could tell by your statement on that , that you had done some real research IE UMMMMMM I know I'll say wolf/dog hybrids are crazy today! yeah that sounds good. Now have to try to think of something for tomorrow ummmmmmmm.

As for your education well you've shown that over and over here! Not ,,,or maybe you have! Come on Gregg this isn't as interesting as it was you just keep saying the same old things over and over. You don't like hybrids, fine. You know very little about them, fine. You keep claiming to be an expert on something that you so obviously know so little about , well that's not fine with me I hate seeing people post BS and misleading information claiming it's fact for others who don't really know one way or the other. That's why I keep posting answers and replies to your BS Gregg. Because so many people see something in writing and assume it must be true.
You have shown yourself to be un-knowledgeable on this subject and a real hypocrite. Now if you want to gather some real information and try to look at it truthfully with out so much Bias then please do. Myself I wouldn't mind a meaningful debate on the subject but this I hate it, I hate it, I hate it just because I hate it BS is really getting old. So please do some research !!!!

I'll make my point again for those reading this thread: don't rely on what myself or Gregg here say as proof one way or the other. Do a little research for yourself and see . You'll be surprised how Hybrids affect your every day lives. They are everywhere, in nature and man made. The simple little Bee's we see every day are responsible for a huge number of natural Hybrids, well unless we want to accuse the bee's of meddling in nature which I guess they are. But then again Bee's are part of nature as are humans.

I'm no strong advocate for Hybrid snakes and do not claim to be an Expert! I'll admit I've been thinking of trying a cross and that I had little direct knowledge about snake hybrids till recently. Though I have done research on them I know I have a lot to learn.
It bothers me seeing BS posted as truth by people like Gregg it is a disservice to anyone who reads threads like this. We see it all the time people who for what ever reason with an unreasonable dislike of something. In this thread I've posted information I have direct knowledge of, I have researched or that I have made what I feel is a reasonable supposition of.
Randy